Did Jesus embrace inerrancy?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Daniel David, Feb 16, 2002.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are many so-called Baptists that do not embrace inerrancy. Instead, they subject the Scripture to their own fallen minds. By ignoring the N.T. and the O.T., they have replaced them with their interpretation of what is God's Word by something referred to as the "Christ criterion". Nobody knows exactly how that works. It is just as subjective as everything else they put forth.

    This is a SHORT list of statements made by Christ Himself regarding Scripture. Let us use His statements as grounds for the belief in inerrancy. It is true that one's view of inerrancy is parallel to one's view of God's perfection.

    1.Mt 5:17-18 - no portion of the law would be removed until it was all fulfilled. Not even the smallest part (jot or tittle).

    2.Lk 24:44 - Jesus explained all that the Law, Prophets, and Psalms contained concerning Himself. Why didn't He just talk to them? It is because Scripture perfectly reflects Christ.

    3.Mt 4:4 - Jesus used the Scripture to rebuke Satan. Why didn't He just rebuke him without Scripture? It is because Jesus believed Scripture to be completely authoritative. It could only be that way if inerrancy is true.

    4.Mk 7:8-9 - Jesus spoke of the "commandments of God" as opposed to the "traditions of men". So the Scripture is seen as originating in God.

    5.Jn 10:35 - Jesus said that the Scripture cannot be broken. The obvious question is, WHY? The answer is because it is a unified body of truth without any possibility of error.

    6.Mt 22:29 - Jesus said to the Sadducees, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God." It is amazing that Jesus didn't tell them that they needed a personal relationship with God or specifically Himself. Jesus said that their problem is with the Scripture. So Jesus equates a person's problem with truth as really a problem with the Scripture. WOW! You know, at this point, I am amazed when the libs continue to pursue their mistaken path of this "Christ criterion" method.

    7.Lk 16:31 - Jesus said, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." So, in other words, one can rise from the dead (Jesus) and the message won't be received. One must receive the truth of the Scripture.

    This is such a short list of Scriptures. I could be here all night. However, the proof is in the statements of Christ Himself. As a side note, Jesus said that His kingdom is a kingdom of truth. "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." What a powerful statement. To deny what Jesus taught and believed is to deny Him. Inspite of those who throw-up, this is the truth. [​IMG] :eek:
     
  2. Deitrich B

    Deitrich B
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2001
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Preach,
    So if your saying the Bible is Inerrant, my understanding of that phrase is you believe it to be literally true and the guide to how we should live our lives. I need the definition defined before I talk about the verses you posted. Is this the case?
    DB
     
  3. PreacherDave

    PreacherDave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2001
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    DB let's be a little more considerate and orthodox. Let's encourage one another in righteousness!

    Here is a couple of statements regarding the scripture:

    The Bible is God's holy, inspired, inerrant Word. It is our complete and sufficient standard for life and faith. There are 66 books in the Bible. We reject any secondary standards, which impose themselves upon its sole authority. (From our church statement of faith)

    The rule of this knowledge, faith, and obedience, concerning the worship and service of God, and all other Christian duties, is not mans inventions, opinions, devices, laws, constitutions, or traditions unwritten whatsoever, but only the word of God contained in the Canonical Scriptures.
    John 5:39; 2 Tim. 3:15-17; Col. 21:18, 23; Mat. 15:9
    VIII.
    In this written Word God has plainly revealed whatsoever He has thought needful for us to know, believe, and acknowledge, touching the nature and office of Christ, in whom all the promises are Yea and Amen to the praise of God.
    Acts 3:22, 23; Heb. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim 3:15-17; 2 Cor. 1:20
    (from the Baptist 1644 Confession)

    Now let's consider also John 17, "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."

    God's Word (inerrant in its original manuscript and preserved through the ages) is all we need for life and godliness. So, the denial of inerrancy implies also the denial of (or resistance to) being sanctified. :D :eek:

    [ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: PreacherDave ]
     
  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deitrich B, as I said, the list is extremely short compared to one that could be posted. It is sufficient to demonstrate Christ's affirmation of inerrancy. It isn't just a matter of believing the written word, the living Word believed it too. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    0
    PreachtheWord,

    It is hilarious that not one of the verses on your list teach inerrancy. Even your prooftexts don't say what you want them to say :(

    Daniel Payne
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Martian, you failed to recognize that I included only 7 passages. You didn't answer any of the passages I did include. You want a verse that says something like: I Jesus believe in inerrancy. How foolish of you! The passages were not prooftexts. I listed them and then commented on them. If your interpretation is so valid, why don't you offer one.

    All you managed to do was display your ignorance of what Jesus really did and say. You err not knowing the scripture or the power of God. You are a theological sadduccee. I will repeat: it is just a short list. I could have been many hours with my post. [​IMG] :eek:
     
  7. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    0
    Temper, temper....

    I simply pointed out that the verses you listed said nothing of inerrancy. There is no need to respond to them since they are off the topic of the title of this thread. Your rhetoric is a really sad attempt at defending inerrancy.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How foolish of you! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If you believe so strongly in inerrancy, you should also know that Christ said whoever calls his brother a fool is in danger of hellfire.

    Daniel Payne

    [ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: MarciontheModerateBaptist ]
     
  8. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarciontheModerateBaptist:
    If you believe so strongly in inerrancy, you should also know that Christ said whoever calls his brother a fool is in danger of hellfire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It never ceases to amaze me how little liberals know about the bible. It should not surprise me that a man who does not believe the bible knows very little about it, but, . . .

    If you would actually read the passage in question you will see that Jesus has just given evidence of His being the Messiah, God in the flesh, Emmmanuel. The crowd is sceptical, and begin to mutter about Him being a fool for making such a claim, He then states that calling a fellow Jew a fool will put them in danger of the sanhedrin, but calling Him a fool, for making a claim to Deity, will place them in danger of Hell fire! It was JESUS they were saying "You fool" to!
     
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Daniel, this isn't the thread for a martyr's complex. Also, my comment was - how foolish. I did not say you are a fool.

    Just for the record, in just the passages listed, Jesus believed the following:

    1. Scripture is one body of truth.
    2. Scripture perfectly reflects Christ.
    3. Scripture is completely authoritative.
    4. Scripture is directly from God.
    5. Scripture cannot be broken.
    6. Scripture is how one correctly know God.
    7. Scripture is more reliable than the witness of one risen from the dead (remember, Jesus rose from the dead because the Scripture said He would - 1 Cor. 15:1-4). [​IMG] :eek:
     
  10. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    No one who is critical of the fact that Jesus, Paul, and Peter is arguing anything substantive. What do these verses mean, if they do not support the inerrancy position? Instead of just sticking your tongue out at these verses, please give some heremeneutical justification for your belief if you maintain that Jesus did not believe in inerrancy.
     
  11. LP

    LP
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see a problem with the "Christ criterion" on the surface, but who knows what some tie to the concept. If they truly deny the OT and NT, that 'taint at all good, of course.

    But the "Christ criterion" seems to just mean how Christ would act in a matter--you know, WWJD and all that sort of stuff.

    If a matter is not directly addressed in Scripture, we can infer from how He acted in other similar instances to the given instance. For example, we might infer to given instances we face from instances Christ faced, e.g., Christ's driving out the money changers, or forgiving the woman caught in adultery. Plus, it would seem to take overall themes of His life and apply them--themes like mercy, grace, love, and truth. Those things certainly need to be informative in all we do. But the same certainly must be commensurate with Scripture.

    [ February 25, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: LP ]
     
  12. Deitrich B

    Deitrich B
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2001
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Arent you guys glad that Joseph didnt embrace your innerancy posistion.

    I would imagine he was familiar with Deuteronomy 22:23-24 but as the first Chapter of Mathew tells us even before his dream he was going against scripture and was going to dismiss her quietly.

    Hmmm, sounds like Joseph instead of being a legalist planned to do what he thought was best for Mary and the unborn child in spite of what the inerrant scripture said.

    Now since as someone said God is not the author of confusion don't you find it interesting that he chose someone to be the earthly father of Jesus who interpreted scripture "liberally"??

    DB
     
  13. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    5,503
    Likes Received:
    40
    From your rendering of this scenario, am I correct to say that IF Joseph HAD planned to follow the laws, that God COULD/WOULD not have confronted him in the dream to let him know that his wife-to-be was innocent of his suspicions?
    Sorta' putting some strict limits on God, aren't you?

    SO????
    Just like all of us, Joseph was just a poor common, everyday, garden variety sinner.

    Shows there's hope even for liberals! ;)
    (Just a little Christian brotherly jab here, nothing to take seriously!! :D )
     
  14. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    What in the world does this have to do with inerrancy? Oh yeah - NOTHING.

    Inerrancy means the Bible records all events and teaching without error. I won't go into the exegesis of why Joseph was not erring; but inerrancy has nothing to do with the recorded actions of men. The Bible also records the sinful actions and deeds of men, demons and satan: does that mean it errs? No, it records without error the deeds of fallen creatures, including elect prophets, priests and kings.

    Your argument is no argument at all.

    Did Jesus embrace inerrancy?

    "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (John 17:17)
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deitrich, thank you for bringing these verses up. They don't have anything to do with the passage, but I will post them for everyone anyway.

    "If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor's wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you."

    Please point out Joseph's liberal interpretation. Point out where Mary was raped or willingly participated in intercourse.

    I have yet to see a single moderate/liberal go after what Jesus said about the Scripture. The truth is that the libs have another Jesus; one which they have dreamed up in their heads. As Paul said, "Professing themselves wise, they became as fools." :eek: [​IMG]
     
  16. Deitrich B

    Deitrich B
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2001
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chris
    Joseph did not follow what scripture told him to do. Mathew tells us that Joseph had worked out a plan to avoid public disgrace for Mary prior to his dream. At that time all he knew was that his fiance was with child. Since prior to his dream he had planned to dismiss her quietly, it seems that he had worked this out not according to the dictates of scripture but his heart. I imagine that prior to the dream he couldn't believe Mary when she told him she had not been with another. It is one of the few things we know about Joseph and makes me like him as a person.

    If you refer back to the definitions of innerant that Preach The Word gave earlier we talked about how the scripture was to guide our lives in every way etc. I was just showing that Joseph disagreed. Of course that is my opinion.

    Other than the fact that the earthly Father of Jesus didn't agree with it. (Unless you want to say the plan he had devised in Mathew 1:19 where it says he was a righteous man was sin) Pretty interesting considering he probably had access to the original autographs. Joseph must have been one of the first Baptists, you know getting out of line with Soul Freedom and interpretation. :rolleyes:

    Do you exclude Jesus from men in the above quote?
    By the way I never meant to infer that Joseph was erring. In my opinion he was not. Even though he was not obeying the scriptures. (Original Autographs no less)

    Thats a relief. I didn't even realize it was an argument. I find it interesting that a righteous man (prior to his dream would plan to disobey the inerrant scripture and Love someone else that much,) can't you imagine what his friends were saying or would have said or did say.

    If so the scripture referred to below would have to pertain to the Old Testament since the New wasn't written when he said this. Is your position that Jesus believed the scriptures of what we call the OT were innerrant?

    Truth and Fact are different Chris. Something can be true and not factual.
     
  17. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,248
    Likes Received:
    3
    Truth and Fact are different Chris. Something can be true and not factual.</font>[/QUOTE]This statement confuses me. Could you explain, or give an example of something being true & not factual ?
     
  18. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    I asked for some logical, Scriptural, reasonable arguments as to why moderates/liberals hold to their outlandish beliefs. All I get is some canard about Joseph's so-called doctrine of Scripture. I hope the moderators of this thread are watching, since this doesn't have one iota of relevance to the topic. Stop swinging at Dietrich's pitches in the dirt guys.
     
  19. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    The story of Adam and Eve can be true - i.e. our sin separates us from God - without being factual (in this case historical).

    This is the heart of the debate over inerrancy. Inerrantists are modernists who define their theology within the limits of rationalism. Before (and now after) the ascendancy of modernism, scripture could represent mythic truth without holding up to the scientific method.

    Joshua
     
  20. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rev, this would make Jesus a liar. He attributed the creation account as being literal. He attributed God with creation. He spoke of Adam as a factual, historical person. Now, the problems keeps coming back to a different Jesus. The Jesus you have dreamed-up is some ignorant, feel-good Jesus. I Cor. speaks of those who have another Jesus. Thank you for demonstrating the beliefs of those such people.

    Frankly, you and the other libs have yet to deal with the Scripture passages about what Jesus said. Talk about unscholarly. :eek: [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...