Did Jesus Have a Sinful Nature While on Earth?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by drfuss, Jan 6, 2010.

  1. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am reading a book that presents two answers to this question.

    The book says the Eastern church says yes focusing on Romasn 8:3 and Hebrews 4:15. The book says the Western church says no focusing on Hebrews 7:26,27.

    This difference is new to me. Can someone enlighten me on the significance of this?
     
  2. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    For me it's no. It says in the likeness of sinful flesh. I wondered this for a while.

    Also before He was born it was said, that ' holy thing ' the virgin birth was truly a miraculous thing in my thoughts.

    That raises thoughts about was Jesus connected to Mary by an umbilical cord? Did Mary's blood flow through Him?

    I thought that if Mary's blood ran through Jesus then He basically would be from Adams line, but no, that maybe is not the case. I got to thinking about it's the flesh that is sinful not blood. And so on.

    Just thoughts!
     
  3. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    as an Orthodox Christian, we believe and teach that Christ is fully 100% divine and fully 100% human, which means His nature is just as ours is...the difference being is that Christ's humanity submitted perfectly to His divinity, thus Christ, being 100% man remained sinless....that's about as simple as I can explain it.

    In XC
    -
     
  4. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    The problem with that line of thought though is that the Bible teaches that we must be born again because of our very nature. Was Jesus born again? Impossible.

    The moment a baby is born, it does not sin, but it's in Adam and cut off from God.

    Do you see the point, it's not about committing sin, it's the very fact of the nature.
     
    #4 David Michael Harris, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2010
  5. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, scripture says Jesus was tempted, so he was at least capable of experiencing the sinful nature. However, scripture says Jesus was sinless, so I would hve to conclude that he did not have a sinful nature as we udnerstand it. The apparant contradition is remedied by understanding that it is not necessary to "have" a sinful nature in order to "experience" a sinful nature.

    If I said I've been boating, that doesn't automatically mean I have a boat. Likewise, if scripture says Jesus esperienced a sinful nature, that doesn't automatically mean he had one.
     
  6. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    So is Christ 100% human and 100% divine?

    Furthermore, the ONLY thing we inherited from Adam is death...period...we are responsible for our own sin not Adam's sin...
    So if the baby dies, is it hell bound, being cut off from God?

    In XC
    -
     
  7. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    My mind still boggles on that one. Sometimes the more you think about difficult things the harder they become.
     
  8. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    I am not going to argue with you, but I am sure a few on here will.

    Just learning here.

    Teach me brother.
     
    #8 David Michael Harris, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2010
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Eph 2 we are told that fallen mankind is "by nature the children of wrath".

    In James 1 we are told that fallen mankind "enticed by his own lust" yields to sin.

    in Romans 7 Paul says that sinful nature is "sin IN me - at WAR with the law of my mind" for a saved Christian.

    In Romans 3 Paul describes the sinful nature when he says there is "no one that seeks after God".

    The sinful nature is at war with the 2Cor 5 "new creation" that we receive at conversion.

    The reason this is such an issue between various groups is that the "Jesus had a sinful nature" guys wrong-headedly think that they are making room for the Bible teaching that Christ is our example - or model "walk as Christ Walked (1John 2)" ONLY if He had a sinful nature like we do.

    They err in arguing that Christ had a sinful nature - because of the fact that having a morally depraved sinful nature would have meant that Christ Himself was in need of a Savior.

    Christ is our example as 1John 2 notes - but he did not posses a sinful nature. He did not provide an "example" of a "lost person getting saved". Even John the baptizer noted that Christ had no need at all for water baptism.

    Christ conquered the temptations of Satan in Matt 4 in the sinless morally pure nature of Adam. Thus in Romans 5 Christ is the second Adam.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    all I can do is offer what that Orthodox Christian Church teaches, and trust me, I'm still learning too...

    A correct understanding of the dogma concerning Christ is contingent upon a correct understanding of the dogma of the Holy Trinity. For, as the Holy Scriptures proclaim and the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils affirmed, Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the second Person of the Holy Trinity. He is the only begotten Son of God Who has taken flesh, who has become a man.

    As the incarnate Son of God, Christ is of One Essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Christ Himself said: I and My Father are one (John 10:30), and elsewhere Christ said: I am in the Father, and the Father in Me (John 14:11; 10:38).

    Being of one Essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit, Christ is fully God. As St. Paul wrote: In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9).

    Being fully God, Christ is the incarnation of the Creator of the universe. St. John declares: All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made (John 1:3). Likewise, St. Paul writes: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible …: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist (Colossians 1:16–17).

    At the Ecumenical Councils it was affirmed that Christ is fully God and at the same time fully man. The Fathers at the Councils overcame heresies that attempted to diminish either Christ’s Divinity or His humanity.

    In his humanity Christ was in all ways like us except for sin, as the Scripture says (Hebrews 4:15). He has both a human nature and a Divine nature, and these two natures are united in one Person. The Fathers defined in precise terms how the two natures are united in Christ: They are united unconfusedly and immutably and yet indivisibly andinseparably. “Unconfusedly and immutably”: this means the two natures do not mingle and are not converted one into the other.

    “Indivisibly and inseparably”: this means that both natures are forever united. They do not form two persons who are only morally united, as the heretic Nestorius taught. According to the doctrine proclaimed at the Councils, the two natures were inseparable from the moment of Christ’s conception within the womb of the Virgin Mary, by the action of the Holy Spirit.

    Finally, at the Ecumenical Councils it was decreed that Christ, having two natures in one Person, also has two wills. The human will of Christ was not changed into the Divine will and was not destroyed. Christ completely subjected His human will to the Divine will, which in Him is one with the will of the Father. As He said: I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me (John 6:38).

    To sum up what I’ve said so far: The Holy Trinity is God of One Nature or Essence (Ousia) and of Three Divine Persons (Hypostases), while Jesus Christ the incarnate God has two natures (ousia) and two wills united in one Divine-human Person (Hypostasis).

    I know, it boggles my mind too...

    In XC
    -
     
  11. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    The thought that Christ's flesh was sinful but He never yielded to it will ruffle feathers to say the least on a protestant message board. :) As it should. Paul talked about understanding all mysteries. This is one of them in some respects.

    The likeness of sinful flesh is inescapable.
     
  12. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    Exposed to temptation for sure, the devil is here. God cannot be tempted. He rebuked the temptation immediately.

    We would maybe ponder the offer or even yield, but God no. Instant rebuke.

    Facinating stuff.
     
    #12 David Michael Harris, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2010
  13. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I disagree. Scripture says that Jesus was taken to the desert to be tempted, not just to be exposed to temptation. Jesus being tempted neither compromises his divine nature, nor does it imply he had a sinful nature.

    Definitely facinating stuff.
     
  14. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    But how do you get around the verse in James that God cannot be tempted?

    Jesus was God incarnate! Son of God that is.

    Tempted as an action but not tempted in the sense that He gave it any other thought that was not in keeping with His nature.
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    The passage in James is referring to man's propensity to say "I was tempted by God". It's addressing this specific human inclination. Jesus was fully human, therefore, capable of experiencing temptation (but not of giving in).
     
  16. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    The book gave an example reflecting the Western churches position which is too long for me to give here. Basically it said that Jesus always wanted to do the right thing, but His temptation was to do good things in the wrong manner.

    A man tempted to steal to feed his hungry children would be doing a good thing in the wrong way.

    The example the book gave of the Eastern position would be a man tempted to steal to feed himself, i.e. stealing to satisfy himself.

    Any comments on these examples?
     
    #16 drfuss, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2010
  17. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not sure I agree, but in and of itself, that pov doesn't appear to contradict scripture on the topic, so it's possible.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Simply put, sinful nature is not a Biblical terms period.
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Neither is theology but you make an attempt to discuss it.
     
  20. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that the baby Jesus was attached to Mary by umbilical cord. I also think this doesn't matter as far as having a sin nature, because Scripture teaches that the sin nature comes through the man, hence the need for the virgin birth so that Jesus doesn't inherit the sin nature.

    I would say that Jesus doesn't have a sin nature because he didn't inherit a sin nature from a man.
     

Share This Page

Loading...