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Did Jesus Have Faith?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tom Butler, Dec 5, 2009.

  1. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I notice that the scriptures Marcia quoted to support her view were basically ignored, with the exception of the ones which say God raised Jesus from the dead.

    Those ignored scriptures are fatal to the contention that Jesus exercised faith. When Jesus said "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up," he was, of course, referring to himself. Clearly, Jesus is saying that he has the power to raise himself from the dead. And Marcia's conclusion adequately makes sense of those scriptures which attribute the resurrection to each member of the Godhead.

    And we must remember that while the body of Jesus was in the tomb, the Son was very much alive, very much active.

    To suggest that Jesus had faith in the Father (or the Spirit) is to suggest that he had less power than the other two--thus was not omnipotent.

    Anyone who takes that line of argument is welcome to it and all its implications.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are right here Tom. This is an example of his deity, not his humanity.
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Rom. 8:11 of him who raised
    he who raised
    will also give through
    1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    Using Marcia's way then the Holy Spirit would have been the Father of Jesus instead of God the Father or Jesus would be his own Father.
    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    John 2:19 Lets look at some of Jesus's thoughts on this subject.
    Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; How?
    Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    Now if you say 1 Cor. 6:14 contradicts John 5:21 here is why it dosn't.

    Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I agree with you that biblical faith is not blind. I hate the saying, "blind faith" (not sure of origin) and "leap of faith" (Kierkegaard).

    I may trust people up to a point but I do not have total faith in anyone on earth.

    So if Jesus had faith, in whom did he have it? I certainly do not see biblical support for Jesus having faith in men (though Rob Bell disagrees with me on that).

    I do not deny the fully humanity of Jesus (in fact, I've argued on the BB against the view that Jesus did not have Mary's DNA) but I am not convinced that Jesus had to exercise faith to be fully man. He did not have to sin to be fully man. He did not have to marry or experience some physical things people experience to be fully man. He was man, but he was also different than other men because of his deity. I do not deny the full humanity of Jesus.

    And why would Jesus need faith in God, since he is part of the Trinity? There is no need for him to have faith. Though a man, his deity was never laid aside.
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    You can't deny the plain meaning of these verses:

    They state that Jesus raised himself up and the Holy Spirit raised him up. Along with verses that God raised Jesus, we see the Trinity working as one here.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are not a very trusting person.
    Putting aside faith in God, and Christ's omniscience (for he suffered as a man), I believe that when he said:

    John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    He humanly had total faith that John would take care of Mary. He was not exercising any divine attribute at this time. He had faith in John that he could carry out this task.

    If you have had children then you know that when they are young they put "total faith" in their parents to provide for them--food, shelter, clothing, protection, etc. They will not put their faith in a stranger to do that, but rather cling to the ones that they know--their parents. That is an example of faith. Jesus said: Except ye be as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is what he meant. He was using them as an example of their simple faith and trust in another.

    Why is it hard for you to totally trust another (not for everything) but in some areas of your life?
    I totally trust (have faith in) my parents that they will always be there for me; that they will never disown me; never turn their backs on me; and love me unconditionally. Can you say that?
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Whether I am or not, it's irrelevant. And I see no commands in the Bible to trust men.

    I disagree. I think he knew that John would take of Mary. I don't see how you can see he was not exercising any divine attribute. I don't see why Jesus' ability to see how John would take care of Mary would not have been in place then.


    I thought the OP was more along the lines of Jesus having faith in God anyway. Here's the OP question:
    My parents are dead and no, I could not always trust them.
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I'll leave it to Marcia to answer for herself, but I'd like to comment on one thing.Jesus' appointment of John to take care of his mother was not an act of faith. I suspect Jesus knew exactly what he was doing as an aspect of his omniscience, which I don't believe he laid aside.

    I don't believe it's possible for Jesus to choose what he will or won't know. He either is omniscient or he's not. To say that, as a human, he is not is to undermine his place in the Godhead.

    Now, when my children were young, they thought I knew everything. Sometimes they'd ask a question I couldn't answer. Daddy, I thought you knew everything. I do, I replied, but I don't know that.

    I don't' think it's possible that Jesus knew everything, but he didn't know that.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Or he either was human or he was not.

    What did he mean when he said:

    Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    Is it not obvious that as man he laid aside his attribute of omniscience for a season?

    Is it not obvious when he went to the cross, rebuked Peter for drawing a sword, and told him that he could have called 12 legions of angels to rescue him, that he laid aside his omnipotence for a season?

    Is it not obvious that when he confined himself to the area that we call Israel, that he laid aside his attribute of omnipresence.

    Is it not obvious that God became man--the incarnation, and in doing so he kept control of some divine attributes which he chose not to use.
     
  10. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Or maybe just for that question. This is the only place in the NT that I can think of where we see Jesus saying he did not know something, But there are quite a few passages that show us Jesus knew what people were thinking and he predicted his own death and resurrection. So clearly he did not lay aside omniscience all the time. I think he knew John would take care of his mother, as I said above. That was not an act of faith and there is no evidence that it was.

    I think he chose not use his omnipotence; that does not mean he didn't have it to use.

    Physically, of course, he could not be in more than one place at a time. But this is not evidence that he did not know the future at most points (all except that one incident, in fact).

    This does not mean Jesus had to have faith in God, which is the topic of the OP as I understand it.
     
  11. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Here is another.

    Luk 8:45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee], and sayest thou, Who touched me?
    Luk 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are answering a different OP than I am.
    I am not speaking of faith in God, but simply "faith"
    The OP:
    Did Jesus have faith; not necessarily faith in God, just "faith," as we might have faith in one another. Faith has many applications. First define faith. Faith is not confined to "faith in God." It never was.
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    This does not mean he did not know who touched him. Remember, there is something similar in the OT when God asked Adam where he was. I'm sure you don't think God didn't know. There are other examples.
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I understood the OP to be talking mainly about Jesus having faith in God:

    OP POST
    It seems to be asking if Jesus had faith that God would raise him from the dead.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I disagreed with Winman, and think that that was a bad illustration to use. I don't see that the OP is limiting "faith" to faith in God, but exploring it to include a variety of usages. Hence the word "or". There are many different questions in the OP. The first couple are fairly direct. Did Jesus need faith (not faith in God).
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    No, I do not think Jesus needed faith.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Look at the title of the thread?
    Did Jesus "have" faith? God has "need" of nothing. So that is a misleading statement or answer that you gave.
    But did Jesus have or exercise faith? I believe that is the question being asked. Is there evidence in the Bible that Jesus, as a man, exercised faith in his fellow man. And as I have given examples, I believe he did. I don't believe we can assume that he exercised his omniscience at all times.
     
  18. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I am having trouble grasping the idea that God the Son, omniscient from the foundation of the world, knowing all things and the future actions of all men, becomes human and no longer knows the things he once knew.

    Seems to me that knowing something in eternity, then not knowing it at some point, would represent a change, undermining his immutability. No, it would be more than undermining it--it would destroy it.
     
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Marcia

    I understand that your approach is from a trinity concept and that is fine except sometime you have to seperate the Godhead. Lets look at Rom 8:11

    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Spirit of him. Is this a ref. to 1,2 or 3 of the Godhead?
    Jesus. 1,2 or 3?
    he. 1,2 or 3?
    Christ. 1,2,or 3?
    his. 1,2 or 3?
    or should it be his spirit? 1,2 or 3? that dwelleth in you.

    Marcia and or Tom

    Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

    Why would Jesus the Christ have to receive a promise like this? Would he not already have it? Just an interesting thought. When was this promise given?
     
  20. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    This is a difficult passage, not that God raised up Jesus, but the part regarding the promise of the Holy Spirit. Maybe someone can exegete it for me, to explain why Jesus needed the Holy Spirit.

    I have had it hammered into me by my professors and my pastors that difficult passages must be interpreted in the light of clear, unequivocal scriptures. Since scripture does not array against itself, the Acts 2 passage must be measured against the nature and attributes of the Godhead--including omnipotence and omniscience.

    So, instead of dueling scriptures supporting our views, can we measure those scriptures against those passages about which there is no doubt?
     
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