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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2012.
As some seem to be postulating at times here, based upon some postings!
Veiling and laying aside are two different things. Philippians 2:7 states that Christ "emptied" Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant. Does that mean that He laid aside some of His attributes and/or deity? I do not think so. Jesus' deity is indivisible, as is His humanity. Analogies eventually fail when applying them to God, but Jesus' veiling was more like throwing a blanket over a light bulb. The light bulb still shines but the covering tempers the visible light. Jesus' humanity tempered His unbridled glory, but it never departed Him.
Anyone suggesting that He did is outside the bounds of well established and well defined orthodoxy and is, as has been historically stated, a complete and utter heretic.
(and I never use the term heretic lightly.)
Where did anyone say that? Could you please quote where someone said this?
NO1 NO! NO! and preachinjesus you are exactly right!
Amen to PJ - to deny deity is heresy of the first order.
The kenosis (refered to by Paul in Phillipians 2) was the voluntary laying aside of the independent use of His attributes. Jesus was God on earth, not a "lesser god".
Was Jesus still "in heaven" (as spiritually part of the Divine Godhead) while "in carnate" and talking on earth for His 39 years here? Yep. Read what He told Nick at Night.
Is the holy Spirit "in heaven" today (same way) yet indwelling me in my physical being "on earth"? Same affirmation.
If someone postulated Jesus was NOT God, let me know - I will be on him like white on rice.
I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but that did it:
Those of us who are not hyper-determinists are well aware of your biased jurisdictions and eager willingness here to help create a *strawman (supposed postulation) and use it to suite your doctrinal beliefs by jumping on the opportunity to label your opponent’s heretics, Dr. Bob. Please spare us the dogma because like you I will be on it like white on rice.
*Strawman - That the Omniscience of God = Classical Theism = Determinism (i.e.: To deny the Determinist view of the Omniscient Nature is to deny His deity.)
(A) Jesus, the Son, being 100% God and 100% man demonstrated that He had a separate, distinct type of knowledge from Father while on Earth.
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
(B) Today, Jesus, the Son, is the Mediator between man and God demonstrating Jesus necessarily has a separate, distinct type of knowledge, yet remains in a Hypostatic union of One with the Father. In my non-determinist’ view, this "currently" allows for the volitional abilities of the creature along with “true” interactions between God and man within time along with allowing a “true” judgment according to the “real” responsibility to respond to His calling, the Light, Mediation, offered to all men (Deut 32:4). (BTW, a belief in this special type of knowledge does not equate to a denial of Divine Omniscience or the Deity of Christ; see Molinism)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(C) Jesus is the Mediator (see the “Word”, John 1) for “all” men, within time, “today” and to deny His Earthly Nature (Humanity) and thereby current being of True Light in the world is just as heretical as denying His Heavenly Nature. (Which is often attempted by the Calvinist to force fit a deterministic factor into the Divine Omniscient Nature of God)
(D) Nothing has “changed” about the special type of knowledge that Jesus retains regarding both His humanity and deity Natures which allows and has allowed for His Mediation from the beginning.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Some here have posted that he ONLY had a single nature on earth, and others that he now ONLY has a single nature again...
Aren't both views condemned by historical faith as outside pale of orthodoxy?
I suspect you have merely presented an untrue statement and displayed a weak dishonest attempt to form a strawman. If you wish to refute my suspicions, there is but one way you can prove you are not being disingenuous and unethical with the use of such debate tactics. Put it up and show it just as you’ve openly and have gome from "postulated" to *now precisely declaring such has been stated by others here!
*You have already ignored the request to post a quote to support your first accusation:
Let them have their fun Ben...It took exactly 4 posts to go from:
Maybe, if no one responds...It will take about 12-13 more posts to devolve into:
"Non-Cals here are holding Satanic seances...I saw them do it...."
"Really! I knew it all along! blah blah...and didn't Winman sacrifice a cat on Halloween?"
This is simply MO for some people...it's kind of like Obama in an interview...never answer the question you were actually asked...answer the question you wanted them to ask. And then pretend they actually asked that question.
Some would rather debate why non-determinists deny the deity of Jesus Christ...in lieu of...say: Where do the Scriptures suggest Jesus really doesn't love most people? So, they must first create the myth ex-nihilo that any of them actually do believe that. They come by it honestly in most cases I think...Their own Theological super-minds do it consistently...beginning with Augustine himself, and if you ever read Sproul...it's a riot. Monergism.com is a veritable blood-bath awash in such scare-crow slayings. I doubt they're even cognizant of it any more.
Why not stand by and watch them tilt at windmills...it could be humorous actually.
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him
This was stating that when the Messiah was to come, He would look no different than you and I. He looked no different from anyone else when they looked upon Him, but those who saw who He really was/is, they knew He was the prophesied Messiah to come into the world. In all of this, He never lost His deity. He was still God manifested in the flesh.
Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Here we see where Jesus showed Peter, James, and John who He really was/is. They saw Him in His glorified body. He had it all the time, it was just veiled in His fleshly body, that was to be crucified for our sins. Jesus, as the Son of man, never lost His deity, it was just veiled behind His flesh.
You missed the posting that stated that jesus had ONLY the nature of God while on earth, or that he was a "mixture" of human/divine, or that now back in heaven JUST nature of God once again?
The Scriptures teach that Christ was fully God (without the glory - being that He set that aside - seen in the transfiguration) and fully man without sin.
There was a union of the two natures (God and man) so that neither nature appears without the presence of the other.
It is unfortunate that some would determine to separate the natures and attempt to mark out some Scriptures indicating that in certain areas are displayed Christ's humanity, and in other areas are displayed the divinity.
Such is not Scriptural. The union of the natures does not present two minds, two hearts, two souls, two strengths. The union of the natures provide for ONE Lord Jesus Christ. When the nature and character of Christ is shown in the Scriptures it is not of two separate natures, it is as a singularity expressing union of the two. Note: I use the word singularity expressing that the human intellectual capacity to understand this union is nearly impossible, and yet it is factual. This is not according to the world use of the word to indicate a future technological and mind ability explosion as seen in some sci-fi (syfy) movies.
One nature does not and cannot appear without the other.
One nature is not and cannot be effected without the other.
Jesus Christ is the God/Man - fully God, fully man with the union of the natures making Him ONE and inseparable.
There is NO earthly example of the union, for even on the atomic level division of the particles can take place. But with Christ one cannot have two sides of the same coin, front to back, an alloyed mixture, or any other illustration. The the natures are in union. Not mixed, not separable, and not usurping authority over each other (as if confused).
ONE Christ - not two.
that view was NOT held to be the biblical model by the Church though!
Its that Jesus had with Him dual natures, and that while on the earth, he limited Huimself to "function" from his humanity, relying upon the power of the Holy spirit and fellowship with God, as what we need to do!
Which is why on a couple threads about pulpit committees and searching for staff, I pointed out the need for the assembly to become extremely familiar with the Statements of faith and other founding documents in which the assembly was to gather in unity.
The modern church generally does not hold to the biblical model as expressed in the early Creeds and Statements of faith in which the natures are stated as an inseparable union.
Even as I pointed out on the BB, there are some that consider the union as actually separable and unequal - that one usurped the power over the other. That in my opinion is false teaching.
Below are two basic foundational Creeds and statements of faith that I have put into bold sections that apply.
"We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεὸν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us."
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life."
The London Confession (1689)
"___ 2 The Son of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father's glory, of one substance and equal with him who made the world, who upholdeth and governeth all things he hath made, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her: and the power of the Most High overshadowing her; and so was made of a woman of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.
___ 3 The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure, having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth, he might be throughly furnished to execute the office of mediator and surety; which office he took not upon himself, but was thereunto called by his Father; who also put all power and judgement in his hand, and gave him commandment to execute the same."
II. The Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature, with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the virgin Mary, of her substance. So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion. Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.
III. The Lord Jesus, in His human nature thus united to the divine, was sanctified, and anointed with the Holy Spirit, above measure, having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell; to the end that, being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth, He might be thoroughly furnished to execute the office of a Mediator and Surety. Which office He took not unto Himself, but was thereunto called by His Father, who put all power and judgment into His hand, and gave Him commandment to execute the same.
the Bible teaches us that God the Son became a man, and had divine and human natures at same time! I go with that over ANY creed!
Is that not what the Statements and Creeds say?
I don't see you as in opposition to the Creeds and Statements of Faith that I posted (in part).
Would you be specific as to what your arguing against by showing what area of disagreement you might have with any part?
Perhaps there is something I missed.
I've seen the question asked several times in different forums. Jesus was "God in the flesh" and was as much God as He was man. If he had been just a man as some heretics believe, He couldn't have lived a sinless life since all humans have a sin nature. However, because of Him also being God, He had no sin nature.
the creeds/confessions ALL point to jesus having DUAL natures, both that of god and man, did NOT see either one nature, or a mixture of the 2 of them!
You and old regular do not seem to read the complete statements.
There was NEVER a mixture, nor a single nature, but TWO in complete agreement and union. We do not speak of the "natures of Christ" but the "nature of Christ" because the union cannot be separated, and cannot be dissolved. What effected his human nature effected the divine. They were of ONE union, and displayed as a singular Lord and Savior not one who was split into two in which one nature or the other usurped authority over the other.
Old Regular spent post after post making argument in support of the Creed(s) and Statement of Faith, never coming to an understanding that we were actually in agreement, but that he was only acknowledging the parts on two separate and complete natures and never the union into "ONE Lord and Savior."
In all that I posted a few posts ago, it is bolded that the two were UNITED; they were in union inseparable, and in my opinion without being able to be distinguished (as apply some attributes to the human nature and some to the divine as some on the BB have attempted in previous threads).
This is VERY important.
Christ did not have two hearts, two minds, two strengths, two spirits, but a UNION of the Two natures.
Here are the parts that specifically apply to the thread from the Chaldedonian and LBC (1689):
Chaldedonian Creed:"...only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεὸν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;..."
The London Baptist Confession (1689) (this one was C. H. Spurgeon revised)"...and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.
___ 3 The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure, having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge;..."
It is heretical to not view Christ as fully man and fully God. Two natures in UNION and functioning together as a single ONE Lord and Savior.