Did Jesus "Spititual Die"While On The Cross?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, May 2, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Some teach that while upon the Cross, Jesus actually suffered both physical and spiritual death, in that he became a sinner, and had to go to hell, and had to actually get 'reborn again" there in order to raise from the dead...

    to me, this view is NOT biblical, as it teaches that Christ did NOT complete the atonement at the Cross, that he needed to finish it off in hell, and that worse of all..

    Jesus, who is very God, became a sinner and had to get reborn again?

    How can God become a sinner?

    wasn't he the Sin Bearer, but never actually became a sinner?
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    You asked the right question, with the right answer implied. No, Jesus did not die spiritually.

    The fact is, God treated him like a sinner, but had he been a real sinner, his death on the cross would have been worthless to us. He would have gotten what he deserved.
     
  3. Allan

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    No. That doctrine is a false doctrine of the worst type. I agree with you and Tom. Long Live the Everlasting and Holy Lord God - Jesus!
     
  4. percho

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    I just went back and re-read the total chapter 3 of John the reborn chapter and as I thought the word sin is no where to be found.

    Because of the sin of Adam death came to all men. This is what we are saved from. All have sinned except Jesus and he was made sin for us and he died the same death assigned to Adam for if he did not then the wages we were to be paid have not been paid.

    We are corruptible and mortal we have to be reborn as immortal and incorruptible.

    In this the fifteenth chapter of First Corinthians it says Christ died for our sins then goes on to tell how through resurrection/change at the return of Christ we will be re-born in the resurrected image of the one who paid our wages for our sin. It was through resurrection he became the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. It was through resurrection this is said of him: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    I wonder why he had to be made perfect? And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, Corruptible flesh yet he was without sin and did not see corruption, the sure mercies of David.

    Do you think David may have been speaking of Jesus whose soul was raised from Hades here also? And speaking of those to be in Christ also?

    My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
     
  5. JesusFan

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    Why would jesus have to go to hell though? His spirit went to the Father, body laid in Sheol/Grave 3 days, than was raised up back to heaven in his bodily form...

    OLNY way that he would need to go there was to take out the OT saints waiting there until His resurrection, but why else need to go there?
     
  6. revmwc

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    First understand spiritual death, spirtually seperated form God in time. Did Christ say my God My God why has though forsaken me? When did He say this while the load of our sin was placed on Him. He did not become a sinner but took our sins upon himself. He was seperated from the Father and Spirit at that very moment. Then we see the Father back with Him after that point as He continued to remember prophecy upon prophecy that dealt with His death on the cross. When all prophecy was completed about His death for and He had taken our sin upon Himself becoming sin for us who knew no sin He commended His soul and Spirit to God. He never had to be reborn nor did he become a sinner, but He died spiritually when the Father and Holy Spirit forsook Him, seperated from them due to our sin placed upon Him. I have never heard He had to be reborn because of the spiritual death that He died.
     
  7. percho

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    You are going to show me the scripture where he commended his soul to God.
     
  8. percho

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    I am not saying Jesus had to go or do anything. I only quoted scripture

    He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, (Greek Hades)

    In the Greek all dead people go to Hades. The good the bad and like me the ugly. Hades is the realm of the dead. Today some die in Christ and some die without Christ but until the resurrection even if their bodies rot away they are in Hades.

    Today when one dies in Christ even though he is dead he is in Christ's bosom, he is dead in Christ. The promises were to Abraham and his one seed Christ. Jesus was telling the Jews of his day relative to inheritance into the kingdom of God, the servant of Abraham, Lazarus is in better standing than the sons of the rich man Judah the son of Jacob and Leah with five other brothers.

    The conversation between Father Abraham and great grandson Judah is taking place just after the resurrection from Hades some unto life and some unto everlasting destruction. Neither dead bodies nor disembodied spirits lift up the eyes and seeth nor dip their finger into anything.

    Hades even though being inclusive of the grave is more that just the grave.
     
  9. revmwc

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    Since I see the soul and spirit as inseprable I said soul, sorry the bible says spirit.

    The only place I see the bible say thew two are able to be seperated in for the unbeliever upon hearing the word and that may be figurative.

    Hebrews 4:
    11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


    Christ is the word would He have needed to seprate His Soul and Spirit.
     
  10. JesusFan

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    That is a prevalent belief in many modern day pentacostal teachings...
    They refer to Moses lifting up the serpant in the desert, as a type of Christ, and say that jesus became our "snake" on Cross, died spiritually, became a man like us spiritual dead sinful nature, went to hell, got born again in hell, rose from dead as a glorofied man

    Many of them say when we will be glorified be JUST like Jesus, "gods", and that we can do JUST same things as Jesus as we are now same as he is!
    That he was a man who "learned/mastered" the sprititual truths of God, and so is our example in how to live like God!
     
  11. revmwc

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    I have heard that the serpent was a type of Christ, not became the snake. Jesus never became a man with a sinful nature, couldn't have been and been our saviour. He went to Abrahams Bosom (Paradise) and once He presented the blood He took the souls in paradise to heaven. Never did He need salvation He was our salvation.
     
  12. Van

    Van
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    Not to get too deep into Christology, but perhaps some study of the hypostatic state should be presented. I have a human spirit, and before I was regenerated, that human spirit was "dead" in that it was separated from God because of the consequence of Adam's sin. So when I was born again, my spirit was placed "in Christ" and so together with Christ I was made alive spiritually, no longer separated. That pretty much covers the idea, in my opinion, of humans being born again in Christ.

    Back to basic Christology. Was Christ part God and part Man? Nope, He was 100% God and 100% Man.

    Did Christ have two spirits, a human spirit created at conception, and a divine spirit? Nope, only a divine Spirit, the second person of the Trinity.

    Was this God Spirit ever separated from the Trinity? Nope, so the Spirit of Christ never died, i.e. with dying being equated with being separated due to unholiness. Jesus was sinless on the cross. He did not become a sinner separated from God.

    Yes I know some will point to the text that says Christ became sin for us, but according to my Christology, Christ became a sin offering for us, which is a variant of the text.

    When Jesus gave up His Spirit (not Spirits) He physically died, He "tasted death."
     
  13. JesusFan

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    Jesus physical body died, spirit/soul went to paradise reunited withbody on third day at his resurrection..
     
  14. Winman

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    That Jesus was separated from his Father is clear when he cried out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". The definition of forsaken means to be abandoned or deserted.

    The scriptures say Jesus was made to be sin for us.

    2 Cor 2:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    I believe this is legal terminology here. We know we do not actually become righteous when we trust Christ, but that his righteousness is imputed to us. So, in like manner, our sin was imputed, or placed on Jesus.

    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
    20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
    23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Hi Winman, 2 Corinthians 5:21 is indeed translated as "sin" in many modern bibles. But an alternate meaning of the Greek word translated sin is "sin offering." See the footnote in the NIV for example.

    If we look at it logically, how could someone who knew no sin, become sin? That should boggle your mind, it does mine. But it makes perfect sense to say Christ became a sin offering.

    Next, what is the meaning of Christ's words, why have you forsaken me? Jesus seems to be quoting Psalm 22:1. And this quotation bookends His "It is finished." Did God protect Jesus from the suffering of the cross, or was Christ's suffering predestined by God? God certainly removed His protection, and did not deliver Christ from His suffering. I think Christ is proclaiming the truth that deliverance seems far away, when in the midst of anguish, but God will keep His promise and never forsake us. Why? IT IS FINISHED!!!

    As far as "sin" being imputed on to Christ, that has no support that I know of in scripture. The blood of Christ was precious because it was sinless. He was the innocent Lamb of God. Our sin offering.

    In Hebrews 9:28 we see that Christ was "offered" [as a sin offering] to bear [take away] the sins of many. Or as John 1:29b says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

    Christ was the ransom for all, not the sin of all.

    Final point, demonstrating that God credits our faith as righteousness, does not demonstrate God imputed our sin on to Christ.
     
    #15 Van, May 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2011
  16. Winman

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    Well, the scriptures say our iniquites were "laid" on him, and that he "bare" our iniquities.

    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    1 Pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    I am not saying Jesus became a sinner, but our sins were laid on him.
     
  17. Greektim

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    Yeah... who needs to use context to interpret Scripture anyways? Sin doesn't fit my theology so I must change it to mean something else--sin offering. Problem solved.

    The context is clear. His righteousness was transfered or imputed to us. Our sin was transfered or imputed to him. Just as we are not ontologically righteous but simply declared so, neither is Jesus a sinner b/c our sin was put on his account.
     
  18. revmwc

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    Nice to see your name in the Greek
     
  19. quantumfaith

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    Winman,

    It is my feeling that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, because, read to the end, it is a psalm of victory. I personally do not believe that God "forsook" him at that time.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    Hi Winman, this difference we have is a very important theological point. One of us is right and the other wrong.

    Picture sin as some sort of physical burden, like a load of sand. Jesus had that load laid on Him, and He carried it away. That is the physical picture presented to illustrate how the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world. But it is one thing to take something away and another to become that thing to be taken away. Now how did He take it away. Not really by lifting sacks of sand and trudging off into the wilderness like a scapegoat. He paid the ransom. He became the propitiation. He became the means of our salvation. He provided justification of life to all men. But when exactly are our sins - our individual sins - taken away? When Christ died on the cross? Nope. When we are spiritually placed in Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh [sin] is removed? Yes.

    So on the cross, when God accepted His sacrifice, He became the propitiation for the whole world, all of mankind. Thus the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world. Picture a pile of composite sin, yours, mine, everyone's sin. When He became the propitiation for the whole world, He ransomed it all, and so all of it can be forgiven and taken off our ledger. Now when a person is placed in Christ, after God credits his or her faith as righteousness, then and only then is our individual sin taken away. So Christ is reconciling the world, one sinner at a time.

    The best example of what was accomplished on the cross to the illustration of the "oil lease." When the big oilman in the sky bought the lease, he did not actually remove any oil from the leased area, but He did "buy" the right to remove some, all or none of the oil, at his discretion. Now when the oil is extracted is when we are spiritually placed in Christ and our sin "washed away." Christ becoming the propitiation means He bought that pile of sin, the sin of the world. That is why scripture says false teachers were "bought." Not because they were saved but because Christ bought the right to have their sins forgiven.

    One of the false doctrines concerning what was accomplished on the cross is called "penal substitution" but the whole idea is really just a Trojan horse for the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement. The idea is Christ was punished, like a whipping boy, for your individual sins. Thus Christ died for and was therefore punished for the individual sins of those chosen individually (according to the false doctrine) before the foundation of the world. Then they drop the other shoe and say, Christ could only die for those who will ultimately be saved, otherwise the sins of lost were paid for by Christ and yet the lost will be punished for them in hell.

    Much better to accept Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, and therefore provides justification of life to all men, but only when we individually receive the reconciliation are our individual sins taken away by the circumcision of Christ.

    Isaiah 53:10 again presents the picture of Christ as an offering. Thus the sin offering was sufficient to remove, carry away, bear the iniquity of all mankind.

    God Bless
     
    #20 Van, May 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2011

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