Did Jesus Suffer in Hell? Part 1

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herb Evans, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    DID JESUS BURN IN HELL?

    We have been aware (for some time) that there is a difference of opinion, regarding whether Jesus went to hell or not. When we were good little Lutherans, we used to recite the apostles' creed, namely, "descended into hell." We have never considered the matter worth fussing about until some new variations appeared, which stagger the imagination. One such theory has Jesus burning in hell redeeming Himself from the sins, which He carried from the cross. Another theory has Jesus burning in hell, making additional atonement for our sins. A milder theory is that Jesus went to a burning hell to deposit our sins (when ours sins are said to be at the bottom of the sea, as far as the east is from the west). Consider:


    A Definition of Terms

    I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to HELL with them that DESCEND into the PIT: and all the TREES OF EDEN . . . all that drink WATER, shall be COMFORTED in the NETHER (lower) PARTS of then earth. . . . To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the TREES of EDEN unto the NETHER PARTS of the EARTH: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword . . . --Ezek. 31:16, 18

    It is important, when discussing issues, such as this, to define one's terms. What do we or others mean by the word HELL and WHICH HELL is being discussed, since there are several, including the LOWEST HELL. Are we talking about a confinement in the burning hell or confinement in the paradise hell, a hell which temporarily housed the Old Testament Saints as well as the damned in two compartments? Hell is divided into two parts, paradise hell and the pit hell (both located in the lower or nether parts of the earth - Ezek. 32:18; Isa. 44:23).

    We do not mind today's loose definition of hell as opposed to its previous configuration (now emptied of saints), which existed in Old Testament times. The saints once went to the paradise part of hell/Sheol/Hades and the lost went to the burning pit part of hell/Sheol/Hades.

    "hell, n. [ME. helle; AS. hel, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.] 1. in the bible, the place where the spirits of the dead are: identified with Sheol and Hades.” -- Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, William Collins Publishers, Inc. 1979)

    The pit portion of hell has sides and is Satan's final destination (Isa. 14:15); it is connected with shame (Ezekiel 32:25, and David expected his enemies to go there (Ps. 63:9). The paradise portion was a place of shouting and singing, where O.T. saints were gathered to their fathers (Gen. 25:8; 49:33; Judges 2:10; 2 Chron. 34:28). It was a place, where the saints could see the lost across a great gulf (Luke 16). Samuel, who was already there, told Saul that he and his sons would be joining him the next day (1 Sam. 28:11-19). It is a place, where the O.T. saints were comforted in the nether parts of the earth with water and the trees of Eden (Ezekiel 31:16; Luke 16). If it is this part of hell that folks say that Jesus went, we can easily bear with them. Still, if it is the burning part of the pit of hell that they say Jesus went, we reject such a theory for the following reasons.

    The New Testament Silence

    If it were not for Acts 2:27, 31 quoting from the O.T., not even a hint of such doctrine could be found anywhere in the New Testament. Paul (with repeated references to the gospel, the substitutionary death, the legal aspects of justification, salvation, the remission of sins) never once mentions a second atonement for sins nor the redemption of Jesus nor of Jesus even going to a burning hell.

    It Is Finished!

    . . . Jesus said unto him . . . TODAY shalt thou be with me in PARADISE. -- Luke 23:43

    . . . Jesus cried . . . My God, my God, why hast thou FORSAKEN me? -- Matt. 27:46

    . . . he said, Father, INTO THY HANDS I commend my spirit . . . -- Luke 23:46

    . . . he said, IT IS FINISHED: and . . . gave UP the ghost. --John 19:30

    Was further suffering necessary—after the cross? Were there yet some sins unwashed and not under the blood? Were the law and its demands and the punitive Levitical types not satisfied nor completely fulfilled at Calvary? Is there another place, where sinners lose their guilty stains? The answers to these questions are found in the statement of Jesus, "It is finished."

    ALL the law's punitive demands were finished at Calvary! After Jesus died and was forsaken, He commended His spirit into the Father's hands, who placed His sinless Spirit and Soul, as well as that of the saved thief, in paradise (not burning Hell) that same day. Hell is not only an eternity of painful torment; it is also an eternity of separation from the Father. Jesus, the eternal one, experienced both eternal pain and eternal separation from the Father on the cross. He suffered eternal torment in His body, soul, and spirit . . . on the cross.

    ONE Suffering, ONE Sacrifice, ONCE!

    . . .the BLOOD [not the smoke] of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin. . .
    -- 1 John 1:7

    . . . now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the [ONE] sacrifice of himself . . . Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sin of many . . .-- Heb. 9:26-28

    . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL . . . after he had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER . . . by one offering he hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified . . . And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is NO MORE offering for sin. -- Heb. 10:10, 12, 14, 17, 18

    . . . Christ also hath ONCE suffered for sins . . . -- 1 Pet. 3:18

    Christ died once, suffered once, made one sacrifice and one offering, and put away sin once for ever. Since that time, those sins were remembered NO MORE! A second atonement, sacrifice, or offering would be double payment, inferring that the first payment, Jesus’ body and blood, was not sufficient to pay for it ALL. The preaching of the cross is the power of God not the preaching of unmentioned events that did or did not happen in a burning hell. The punitive Messianic/Levitical prophecies/types refer to the crucifixion account and not to an event referred to in Acts. Christ appeared once to put away sin by the one suffering and the one bodily sacrifice/offering of Himself on the cross. Christ paid for and bore those sins once and not twice. A second sacrifice/offering or suffering was unnecessary. -- continued
     
  2. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Did Jesus Burn in Hell? - Part 2

    Does It Really Say That Jesus Went to Hell?

    . . . thou wilt NOT LEAVE my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. --Psa. 16:10


    . . . thou wilt NOT LEAVE my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption . . . He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was NOT LEFT in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. -- Acts 2:27,31

    This passage, in Acts, is a reference to the Messianic prophecy of Psalm 16:10. It was spoken in reference to the "resurrection" and not to any sacrifice nor suffering. Indeed, Jesus' soul had to go somewhere. Nevertheless, the emphasis, here, is not that of certain "Apostles' Creed" champions. The emphasis belongs on Jesus' incorruptible and temporarily soul-less body. It does not say that Jesus "went" to a burning hell. It does not say it here or anywhere else. Such a theory must be assumed, interpreted, interpolated, and read into these passages but cannot be read out of them. This is resurrection truth and not redemptive truth.


    Apostles' creed bullies assume that the only possible interpretation of the words LEFT and LEAVE must be interpreted as ALLOWED TO REMAIN. Such a definition is a legitimate one but not the only one. Webster also renders LEAVE (and its participles) as ABANDON and FORSAKE, definitions that are consistent with the Authorized ENGLISH Text as well as the GREEK and the HEBREW Text. Jesus was promised the very opposite of that which the Protestant, "Apostles' Creed" police insist. Jesus, like David, was promised NOT to be abandoned nor forsaken in a burning hell and also NOT to have His flesh corrupt. This is what was said that would NOT happen rather than which would happen.


    When we flew from California to Pennsylvania, our baggage was not LEFT in Indiana; it never was in Indiana, and neither we nor the plane ever set foot in Indiana. When we went to the zoo, if we would have promise our grandchildren that we would not LEAVE nor ABANDON them in the lion's cage, they need never be inside the lion's cage for such a promise to work! Jesus was never in a burning hell! Yet if paradise hell is the meaning, it involved the paradise portion of hell and not the punishment part of hell.

    Did David Go to a Burning Hell?

    . . . thou wilt not LEAVE my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. -- Psa. 16:10


    Students of prophecy, know that the Messianic prophecies, also apply to the writer's own experiences and/or expectations. Often, the writers did not even know of the prophetic nature of their own experiences or writings. Did David expect his soul ("my soul") to go to a burning hell, or did he expect his soul to escape it? David's first statement is obviously intended to apply to both himself and to the Messiah. Still, more significant, David's differently worded second statement could not apply to both himself and the Messiah. He says, "neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." David's body saw corruption, but the Holy One, the Messiah's body, did not corrupt.

    Where Was Jesus After He Died?

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, TODAY shalt thou be with me in PARADISE. -- Luke 23:43


    For as Jonas was THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS in the whale's belly; SO SHALL the Son of man be three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH. --Matt 12:40


    . . . being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in PRISON; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing. . . -- 1 Pet. 3:17-20


    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection . . . -- Matt. 27:52,53


    Thou hast ASCENDED on high, thou hast led CAPTIVITY captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also . . . -- Psa. 68:18


    . . . When he ASCENDED up on high, he led CAPTIVITY captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PARTS of the EARTH? He that descended is the same also that ascended . . . -- Eph. 4:8-10

    Where was Jesus, until the resurrection? He did not DESCEND into a BURNING hell; He descended into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH He was not burning! He was preaching to spirits in either Abraham's bosom or to the lost spirits across the great gulf or to the angels that sinned or to a combination of both or all three. Since there is MORE THAN ONE HELL (Psa. 86:13; Deut. 32:32), the scriptures make a distinction between Abraham's prison paradise (which are called captivity) and the prison torment (the other side of the great gulf), namely a burning hell (Luke 16:24, 26).


    Jesus had promised the thief that he would go to this temporary paradise with Him that very day. Afterward, Jesus arose from the dead and then resurrected some of the inhabitants of Abraham's Bosom, prison, paradise. He gave gifts to men, releasing them, from their temporary captivity. The way into the Holiest was now open. The ONE sacrifice had been made. Now, redeemed saints can go directly to a heavenly paradise, rather than to the place of Abraham's bosom, an intermediate prison paradise (they were released from prison or captivity to go to glory). Let the Protestants keep there apostles’ creed.

    -- by Herb Evans
     
  3. mountainrun

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    I pretty much agree with your posts.
    I believe, though, that the main misunderstanding comes from whether the word should have been translated as "hades" rather "hell."
    Hell seems to connotate the final place of punishment after judgment.
    "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."

    Hades, at the time of Jesus was apparently where everyone went when they died, saved separate from unsaved by "a great chasm" according to Luke 16.

    MR
     
  4. Jeep Dragon

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    I am not sure what happend to Jesus, but I'm sure that when He said "It is finished" that it was finished.

    Realizing that the only way to satisfy the Father's wrath against sin was to send every sinning soul into hell for eternity, Jesus must have somehow tasted that for every soul so that when He said "It is finished!" it meant that the Father was relieved.

    Could Jesus' blood have special properties that could make half a day of physical suffering satisfy the Father's wrath as much as possibly trillions of souls in eternal hell? I don't know. I do know that some of the reasons He went to the cross was so that He could shed His blood to picture punishment for sin, and so that we could all agree that He suffered regardless of whether or not we believe He went to hell.
     
  5. Herb Evans

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    You are very perceptive. You have part of the key. Hell means nothing more than "Hole" and is understood within its context, especially in thje O.T. when as you say everyone went there. However, when the saved were taken to heaven's paradise, it became only the place of the damned. -- Herb Evans
     
  6. AresMan

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    Just a suggestion, but maybe this passage is not about what Jesus did during His death, but what He did before His death and after His resurrection.

    Here, Jesus fulfills the prophecy that during His time on earth, he would "preach deliverance to the captives." Maybe this will make sense of other passages.

    The tricky phrase here is "the lower parts of the earth." Is this the "underworld"? Maybe it is simply referring to the terrain of the earth itself. It could be a contrast with "up on high." The same Jesus that ascended into heaven after His resurrection is the same Jesus that descended to earth, took on flesh, and dwelt among us.

    This passage could be talking about the purpose of Jesus coming to earth was to save His people. He did this by dying in the flesh and being raised from the dead ("quickened by the Spirit").

    "Preached unto to spirits in prison" could be a reference to "preach deliverance to the captives." The emphasis is not on the people who perished in the flood, but on the few who were saved. The resurrection of Jesus saves His people in the like manner that those eight were saved from the flood.

    After Jesus died and rose from the dead, He ascended into heaven and is seated on the right hand of God.
     
  7. AresMan

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    Just because I Peter 3:19 refers to "spirits" doesn't mean it is referring to disembodied spirits. It can simply be referring to "living souls." Verse 20 refers to Noah and his family as the eight "souls" that were saved.
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    1st lets get it right. That phrase is not found in the early writings. The creed most likely came from the "Old Roman Creed".

    This is how the oldest copy we know of reads..

    I believe in God almighty
    And in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord
    Who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
    Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried
    And the third day rose from the dead
    Who ascended into heaven
    And sitteth on the right hand of the Father
    Whence he cometh to judge the living and the dead.
    And in the Holy Spirit
    The holy church
    The remission of sins
    The resurrection of the flesh
    The life everlasting.


    The Old Roman Form is given from the Greek of Marcellus, of Ancyra, 341 AD which is posted above. We have copies both in Greek and Latin. Most are sure this dates back to 2cen.


    After 500ad most all the copies read like this...

    I believe in God the Father almighty,
    I also believe in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord,
    conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.
    suffered under Pontius Pilate, crucified, dead and buried; he descended into hell,
    rose again the third day,
    ascended into heaven,
    sat down at the right hand of the Father,
    thence he is to come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Ghost,
    the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
    the remission of sins,
    the resurrection of the flesh and life eternal.
     
  9. AresMan

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    bumpity :D
     
  10. Herb Evans

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    I think you should trade in your "maybe's" and "could be's" for some "most likelies." -- Herb Evans
     
  11. Herb Evans

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    Good post, good info. Not so good for creedal folks, however, Herb Evans
     
  12. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Answer to OP:

    No.

    The body of Jesus went into the grave, or the earth. He did not suffer after death in any kind of place of torment. The atonement was complete on the cross at his death.
     
  13. Herb Evans

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    I personally believe he did descend into hell. I don’t put any faith in church creeds, whether they support what I believe the bible teaches or otherwise. -- Fred

    Fred, Do you believe that Jesus Christ went to hell fire? If so, to what purpose? - Herb Evans

    Yes, if Christ had to pay for our sins he would have to have paid our penalty. --Fred

    You do not believe that our penalty was taken care of on the cross, in that it was finished? -- Herb Evans

    But I think that really isn’t the right way to approach it. We should examine the scriptures first instead of asking what the purpose is.

    Why should we should not ask the purpose of something so shocking? -- Herb Evans

    What convinced me were 2 things:

    1. The Typology of the burnt ram in Lev 16.

    So, you believe what you believe due to your understanding of a type which you believe to be hell fire? -- Herb Evans

    2. Christ died with our sins on him.

    Yes! -- Herb Evans

    If he didn’t go to hell, where are they? In heaven?

    Now, do you believe that he went to hell to suffer our penalty or to deposit our sins or both? It is not good to base a doctrine upon one's own questions, but perhaps this will help.

    Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. --Herb Evans

    While I don’t think this is a doctrinal point brethren should war about, . . .-- Fred

    I don't either, but it was your nickel, so I responded. -- Herb Evans

    I think the scriptures are clear on the matter. -- Fred

    I do too, but you have not demonstrated that clarity. -- Herb Evans
     
  14. Bluefalcon

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    Jesus didn't preach to people in hell. That doesn't make any sense. Wayne Grudem has this one right. Jesus preached through Noah to the spirits who are now in hell. Thus Noah was certainly one of the greatest preachers of all time, and no one got saved but his own family. But all those who perished were without excuse, for they all heard the very words of Jesus, and believed not.
     
  15. Herb Evans

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    Interesting! I don't dispute it. -- Herb Evans
     
  16. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    advocate

    Job 16
    18 "O earth, do not cover my blood;
    may my cry never be laid to rest!

    19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
    my advocate is on high.

    20 My intercessor is my friend
    as my eyes pour out tears to God;

    21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
    as a man pleads for his friend.
     
  17. Herb Evans

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    Good, Psalmy, but don't let a Calvinist hear you quote that.-- Herb Evans
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    Why in the world would a Calvinist not want to hear this passage? This is talking about a sovereign God doing as He wills. I do not understand why you would say this. Please tell.


    In Christ...James
     
  19. Herb Evans

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    Because many Calvinists think that things are etched in stone per the secret eternal decree. Pleading for anything is a waste of time to them if something is already ordained to be. -- Herb Evans
     
  20. bound

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    Today Hades tearfully sighs: 'Would that I had not received Him who was born of Mary, for He came to me and destroyed my power; He broke my bronze gates, and being God, delivered the souls I had been holding captive.' O, Lord, glory to your cross and to your holy resurrection.

    Early Christians expressed the truths of our faith with allagory... or did they? :saint:

    PS: I don't think He suffered He entered Triumphant! Amen!
     

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