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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Daniel David, Nov 13, 2002.
Was there a possibility that Judas could have been saved?
No. He fulfilled his purpose.
Did Judas have free-will to be saved?
Judas had free-will like all people. But like all of those who are not of the elect, his free will in concert with his sin nature resulted in the rejection of Christ.
So Helen, what you are saying is that prophetic Scripture could have been undone by this guy? Is that correct?
Jesus said Judas was the son of destruction by prophesy. I don't want to argue with Jesus about it. Perhaps you could clarify/restate your position.
Could Judas have been saved? No.
Did Judas have the free-will to be saved? No.
Judas only had the will to that which was determined of him before the foundation of the world.
Prophetic Scripture is from God, who stands outside of time and sees the end from the beginning, as He so clearly states in Isaiah. Therefore He knew what Judas would do and simply stated that. That had nothing to do with the freedom Judas had in his own time to make the decisions he made.
If he had been determined to be damned from before he was created with no ability to respond to Christ on his part, then indeed Paul would have been wrong when he wrote that no man has an excuse. Judas would have had every excuse in the world.
[ November 13, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
For your diligent study here and in all posts.
IMHO. I believe you desire to sincerely present that which you feel the Bible teaches.
I just cannot seperate the God which knows the beginning from the end, and knows the prophecy has decreed it, etc, from the God, (being the same), who does not know what His highest creature will or will not do.
I mean, he set the bounds of the sea, that they would not pass over them, yeah, sometimes there appears to be the passing over of the seas, but they never supercede the purpose of God. He has his eye on the Sparrow, and how much more important are we?
These things I cannot reconcile, to believe God is sovereign in all things except my will, this is a contradiction I cannot take.
So if Judas was the "prophesied son of perdition", your position is, that He (Judas)was the prophesied son of perdition because God saw him rejecting Christ and turning Christ in.....
So Gods eternal decree's are built upon the cause and effect of His creatures? God see's his created doing something, so in response, God builds eternity upon this premise.....submitting to the created.
Who is really sovereign here?
God is sovereign, Scott. His sovereignty is just a little bigger than you think! If He has chosen to spend time (if you will excuse the expression, please) responding to us in order to teach and train us, we need to understand that.
Jesus did not tell us to call Him "Father" for nothing...
As a parent myself, I could have simply bossed my kids around, determined everything for them etc. etc. But the better part of training is to let them make decisions and respond to them. That does not decrease my parental authority -- in fact it demands a bigger authority which can encompass more.
Just because God already knew doesn't mean we are robots. We're not. Robots cannot love. Love that is programmed in is not love. And we have been told that love is the core and foundation of all the Law and the Prophets.
Love is a decision. Don't mistake me. Decisions do not equal ability. We have no ability to love as God would have us love until we are born again. But we are free to want to love, and that is all He is asking for. He does everything but violate the very freedom to want that He has given us. Without that freedom we could never love, and that is what we have been created for.
Therefore we are in a position of trying to understand a sovereignty so big that He can allow us that freedom to want and still know, ahead of time, what it will be and everything that will happen in our lives and everything else. That's not to say we can understand it; we can't.
Your kind of sovereignty where God is simply pre-determiner and boss I can understand. And the very fact that I can understand it means it is much too little for what God is.
If Judas had repented and believed, then he would have been saved just as anyone who repents and believes is saved. He did not do so and was lost. So, yes, the opportunity was there but he did not repent and believe. Judas has no one to blame but himself.
Two things to consider.
1. Judas died before the death of Christ. His entrance into heaven could not have required him to believe that Christ died and rose again.
2. Christ tells his disciples that each of them will be sitting on the twelve thrones in Heaven.
My perspective is that Judas is in Heaven right now.
If he is he is and if he is not he is not!... God know and it is no business of mine!... Brother Glen
How do interpret Jesus calling Judas "the son of perdition" which is a Hebrew idiom for one destined to perish in John 17:12?
Evidently, Abraham believed in Jesus.
John 8:56(NASB)“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
1. So, everyone who died before Christ did is in Heaven?
2. Matthias replaced Judas. Of course, there is also the question about Paul...Will it be Paul or Matthias who sits on that throne? Whoever it will be, it will not be Judas - the "son of perdition."
Ah, but where WAS Abraham? (Read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.) He was in paradise.
So it sounds like you take the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be historical and not a parable. I have heard it described both ways. The main problem I see with it as being historical is that between death and the end of this world, do believers watch the lost being tormented?
Also, in the context of Jesus' discussing Abraham, He describes Abraham as having rejoiced(past tense), not rejoicing(present tense). Jesus is also describing His pre-existence before Abraham, as He says that before Abraham existed, He already existed. Therefore, it sounds like Jesus is talking about Abraham during his earthly existence, not about Abraham's current existence.
[ November 13, 2002, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Jesus came to seek & save that which was lost.
was judas lost? was i lost? were you lost? when i was lost before i accepted Jesus as savior,in my lost condition i used to feel like a puppet,between God & the devil. had i known i had no choice ,oh well whats the differance?