Did Know From eternity Who He would save or not?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Dec 19, 2013.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Did he already have knowledge of ALl those whom would get saved by the Cross even before Jesus came to earth, or was He learning /aware of who was saved when they believed?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    Do you believe God was surprised that you came to Him ? or that you were born in the flesh, in time, when you did ?
    Was He surprised you were born where you were, and who your parents were?
    Do you believe Jesus when He said that God knows you so intimately that even the very hairs on your head are numbered ?
    Do you think that if He knows when a sparrow falls, He would also know how many skin cells and hair come off us by the hour or by the minute ?
    Do you think the psalmist was just full of spirits in his belly when he wrote: He telleth the number of the stars;he calleth them all by their names.

    All these are said with no disrespect intended, brother.
    just the intent to illustrate the magnificent power of the God who saved us.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Yes.

    And did God already know every thought every word that Christ would speak His entire life on earth before there was yet even one of those days?

    Yes.

    what is your point?

    God the Son "had no free will"??? really??

    Clearly Christ proves that absolute foreknowledge does not negate free will.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    "Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?"
    --R. Charles Blair.
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Lets see:

    God knew who would believe in Jesus.

    God knew who would not believe in Jesus.

    God knew who would sin and what each and every sin would be.

    God knowing what our future thoughts and actions will be predestines them.

    Therefore since God is the author of our sin, why does He punish us for the sin He compelled by predestination?
     
  6. Inspector Javert

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  7. Inspector Javert

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  8. Yeshua1

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    Jesus had no "free will" as you define it, for His will was ALWAYS to do what the father wanted Him to do, and so we ALL need to surrender and lose our 'free will" and do what the father commands us to do!

    Once he was born,there was NO "backing out" of the Cross for him!

    The Godhead had predestined that to happen!
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    So BOTH Cals and Arms affirm that God already knew from eternity who would get saved, that he did not have to know about it the instant they believed, as some would teach in the church?
     
  10. BobRyan

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    I thought we all knew that.


    What are you talking about? The idea that "some Christians think God did not know something" at one time? - Some also believe in infant baptism and praying to the dead. We cannot be expected to to be held accountable for what everyone who is not a Calvinist thinks.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    And did God already know every thought every word that Christ would speak His entire life on earth before there was yet even one of those days?

    Yes.

    what is your point?

    God the Son "had no free will"??? really??

    Clearly Christ proves that absolute foreknowledge does not negate free will.

    Totally false.

    The Arminian position is that absolute foreknowledge does not negate free will and Christ is perfect proof of that fact.



    That is an example of the Calvinist argument against free will.

    It is an example of the Arminian argument FOR IT!!

    We claim (as do most Calvinists) that Christ DID and DOES have free will even though God has absolute foreknowledge.

    Calvinism argues for some defective element placed in Lucifer to "make him fall" as with "Adam" as with all of mankind - so that they cannot help do what they do.

    Calvinism makes God the "cause of His own lament" so that they can deny free will.

    But Christ proves that free will is not negated by God's foreknowledge.

    The man who watches a movie before you do - then when you see it - explains every detail in the movie just before it happens on the screen - did not remove free will from the writers, the directors, the actors - he simply knows the final result and can tell it to you down to the minute.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Van

    Van
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    It is clear the Calvinists accept that predestining something compels that something, otherwise it would not be destined to happen.

    However, it is also clear that Arminian leaning folks reject the idea that predestination compels the outcome.

    Both groups address the logical difficulty by seeking refuge in "mystery." Calvinists say God is not the author of sin, even though by logical necessity He is, but the reason He is not is a mystery. Arminians say knowing something will happen in the future either does not predestine that outcome, or predestining that outcome does not compel it. Either escape path is absurd, and so again its a mystery.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Yes regarding salvation, Notice...

    Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

    Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

    Ephesians 1:11-12 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

    Before the beginning of time, God chose a people and has made it so that they will all eventually be LIKE Jesus Christ and WITH Jesus Christ. So dont tell me that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Nope..... thats called ABSOLUTISM & its not in scripture. So realize this, "Predestination" is only concerned with the destiny of the elect & in getting them saved. Im done here.
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    EWF denies the Calvinist doctrine that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Good, because the Bible teaches something else entirely, that God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

    But does that fix the problem? What about did God choose a people individually or corporately? If the alternate doctrine still clings to individual election for salvation before creation, then we go back up the same creek without a paddle. God cannot be mistaken, so whoever He chose must be saved, no matter what, and whoever He did not choose must be damned, no matter what, so God, according to this mistaken doctrine still is foreordaining damnation, without providing any other opportunity. So again, according to this theory, God will punish those not chosen individually for doing what He predestined.

    All either Calvinists or Arminians can do is throw up a smokescreen, change the subject, and stick to absurdity.
     
  15. Rippon

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    Please tell us what the differeance is between God causes whatsoever comes to pass and God ordains whatsoever comes to pass.
     
  16. InTheLight

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    There is no "future" with God. HE IS. Humans have futures (and pasts). God exists outside our frame of time reference. Foreknowledge does not necessarily mean foreordination.
     
  17. Van

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    Thanks In the Light, you have presented the Arminian view accurately. I believe that view, as well as the Calvinist exhaustive determinism view, is mistaken.

    No verse that I have found supports the conjecture that God is always outside "our frame of time reference." Our time reference being the apparent passage of time created when God created the physical universe. Certainly that "time" did not exist before creation. But God intervenes in time to change circumstance, i.e. He delivered His people from Egypt's slavery. Not to mention Christmas!!!

    Just as God hardening hearts demonstrates total spiritual inability, the Calvinist doctrine, is mistaken, because if true, no hardening would be needed, God making plans for the future indicates He has not foreordained everything that will happen.
     
  18. InTheLight

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    Yes, God can intervene in our lives, but being omniscient and omnipresent means by necessity he is everywhere at all times.

    At minimum He knows everything that will happen. Please give me an example of an event that God did not foreordain.
     
  19. Van

    Van
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    Hi In the Light, I assume by "foreordain" you mean cause to happen. God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. God allows us to trust in Christ, or not. He does not compel us to believe or not believe.

    In Luke 10:31 we see Jesus teaching some actions by men are not foreordained, compelled or caused. They occur by chance.

    In Ecclesiastes 9:11 we see time and chance overtake all men.

    In 1 Samuel 6:9, we see the idea that some things are ordained but other things happen by chance.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    Hi In the Light, ask yourself why God makes plans if not to intervene and alter the future.

    Ask yourself why God would create a future that He foreknows such that He needs to alter it by intervening. Does God make mistakes?

    Why did God harden Pharaoh? Did God create a future that needed to be altered in order to create the impression that the future is not totally fixed? Or is that the reality found throughout scripture?

    Consider Isaiah 30:1 where our sins are not according to God's plan. The picture of reality found in scripture is one where as the future unfold, somethings are brought about by the predetermined plan of God, and other things allowed to occur by God, occur because of chance and/or the choices of men.
     
    #20 Van, Dec 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2013
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