I would like to star ta new thread on an idea DHK mentioned in another thread. If I understand your view correctly, you do not believe in any spiritual gifts continuing to this day. You also say you believe the gifts ceased all at the same time. Since 'evangelists' and 'pastors and teachers' are called 'gifts' in Ephesians 4, is it true that you do not believe that there are any more evangelists or people who fucntion as pastors and teachers in the church any more? If you think there still are such people, how can they do these things without God graciously enabling them to do so?