Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Apr 27, 2015.

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  1. revmwc

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    1 Thessalonians 1: 10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

    Is Paul mentioning a Rapture a catching away of the bride to the Thessalonians which is to occur before the Tribulation in 1st Thessalonians 1:10? Or is a Catching away a part of the coming at the end of time or is he speaking of a general resurrection and there will be no Kingdom?

    Let’s look first at the fact that all believers have been delivered from the wrath to come. The wrath to come is the Tribulation according to Revelation 6 -19, God pouring out His judgment upon mankind.

    We see Paul answering a question posed to him by the believers in Thessalonica in 1st Thessalonians.

    We see he answers them about the dead. Now if he were speaking of a general resurrection why would they have posed the question? There would not be a question if all are resurrected in the general resurrection view. Evidently Paul had taught them of the return of the Lord for the church and he seems to be saying it would happen before God's wrath would be poured out.

    1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Their question seems to be when the Lord returns for us what about those who have died did they miss His return for the church? To which Paul says they will be raised first, then we who are alive and remain will meet you in the air. Notice Paul didn’t say we would meet Christ on Earth which would mean at His second coming. Secondly Paul said we would meet them in the clouds and would ever be with the Lord. Paul doesn’t say Christ comes all the way to earth as Revelation 19 clearly states. So the church is taken out before the wrath to come and the dead in Christ go before those who are alive and remain.

    What does this show us a Rapture or a General Resurrection?
     
  2. OldRegular

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    Jesus Christ delivered us from the Lake of Fire!

    NO! The false doctrine of the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is the machinations of John Nelson Darby, popularized in this country by Cyrus Scofield.

    Where does it say the wrath to come is the so-called-great-tribulation you say is pictured in Revelation 6-19. Where does Scripture say that Revelation 6-19 is a seven year period of tribulation for those supposedly left behind. Who did John write the Book of Revelation for, the Church or the unbelievers? If the Church is gone after Chapter 3 then what is the point of the remainder of the book?

    You got that correct!

    They anticipated the "soon return" of Jesus Christ and thought those believers who had already died would not participate!

    Same answer! They anticipated the "soon return" of Jesus Christ and thought those believers who had already died would not participate!


    Paul has addressed the concerns of those whose believing lived ones had already died. He does the same thing in the early verses of 1 Corinthians 15.


    Unless you can prove Jesus Christ was wrong when HE stated the following, and you cannot, it is the General Resurrection!

    John 5:28, 29
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
     
  3. Calypsis4

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    That's a wrong application. The lake of fire is the end result of God's wrath but... the 'wrath of God' is identified as the tribulation period according to Revelation 6;17, for that wrath is connected with the judgments of the four horsemen of the apocalypse and not the lake of fire.

    For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    This statement was made by John long before he mentioned the lake of fire.

    You were corrected on this earlier and you ignored the details of the church fathers who made it clear that the pre-trib rapture was believed in long before Darby was ever born. I was not the only pre-tribber that quoted multiple church fathers on that pre-trib teaching but you blew it off claiming that 'Dr. Thomas Ice' doesn't agree with us on that. So? Are we to follow Ice or the scriptures?


    The 'so-called tribulation'? Jesus mentioned it,

    Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    But in direct answer to your question: As quoted above in Rev. 6:17.

    But let me remind you again that what John wrote about the tribulation was about 25 years after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 so your position on this cannot possbily be correct. He was speaking of events that had NOT taken place yet. They still have not occurred in our world and are yet future.


    No, he was giving them reason to hope that they would be once again with their dead loved ones ...at the rapture harpazo (Greek) of the church which is the point of both I Thessalonians 4:16-17 & I Corinthians 15:52.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    It is you who are incorrect. There is no Scripture that justifies the Darby invention of a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church! Scripture does not contradict itself!
     
  5. Calypsis4

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    Sir, I will say it politely: it is you who is contradicting scripture. I already gave it to you before but you have what seems a terrible habit of ignoring details that you don't agree with.

    In the very chapter(21) that Luke discusses the coming terrible tribulation he tells us:


    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (point: this has never happened in world history...it is yet to come!)

    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


    Again, sir, there are those who will escape...and to escape that terrible time means to be with the Son of Man, a la 'caught up' (harpazo - Greek)...but there will be those who will not escape & will face tribulation, antichrist, and the plagues mentioned in Revelation.

    This teaching is one of the most wonderful and thrilling things about the Bible and it brings joy to the hearts of those who are looking forward to meeting with Jesus in the air and escaping what is to come upon this awful, dark, sin-cursed world. It is too bad that those of you who deny it have to miss the feeling of that joyful anticipation. But that's what unbelief does to people who cling to wrongful teaching.
     
  6. OldRegular

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    Then explain the following Scripture:

    John 5:28, 29
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    The above teaches a general resurrection and judgment. That was the dominant doctrine of Baptists until Darby had his epiphany as I have shown on two recent threads:

    How Many Resurrections In Revelation? Posts 82, 83, and 85!

    3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ Posts 157, 158, 159!
     
  7. revmwc

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    Ephesians 4:9-10, 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    first we see Jesus descended into paradise of which we know from His teaching was separated by a Great gulf and those in torments could talk to those in Paradise, we see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

    Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    Peter says Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, that would be those in torments, they all heard everyone who was in the grave heard Him. When did this occur, Paul said when He descended so that "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice", The hour came and those in the grave heard his voice. Then he carried the souls in Paradise to Heaven, how do we know this we see Paul again, 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul made it very clear that when we die we go to Heaven to be with Christ. The souls in prison stayed in prison until He returns to the earth and completes His mission of the Kingdom.

    As for the 7 year Tribulation we see,

    Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    42 months that would be 3 1/2 years,

    Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    42 months = 3 1/2 years and I believe that makes 7 years.

    Then too we have this from Jesus,
    Luke 21:24. 24 “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” We know that Jesus said the time of the Gentiles would end when the abomination that maketh desolate appeared, Matthew 24:15-22, 15"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Jesus said and Revelation bears it out Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    That image stays for 3 1/2 years. Except the time of tribulation be shortened, that a short 7 year period no flesh would be saved.

    Then they will return for the final week of Daniels 70 weeks, which as proven out by fulfillment of prophecy will be 7 years.

    Jesus foretold the events of Revelation 6-19 we see in : Luke 25-28, 25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."


    Every thing Jesus prophesied here is seen in Revelation 6-19.

    One final thing we see which says Christ is coming physically back to earth to set up His Kingdom which shows literal is Revelation 19:19,19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

    Wonder how they know He is coming at that specific time, because of them knowing that the Tribulation would last 7 years from the church having been removed. They are gathered to war against Jesus, who is coming to earth. This is followed by the Kingdom set up in Chapter 20 which will last for 1000 years.
     
  8. revmwc

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    One more you ask why should we look past Chapter 3 if the church is snatched away in Chapter 4 so that we are encouraged to witness, to keep others from ending up in the Lake of fire, so that the Holy Spirit can convict them and they then must choose to accept or reject Christ. That is why we should teach it as an encouragement to believers first that we will not go through that period and two that we become stronger witnesses to try to keep family, friends and enemies from ending up in the Lake of fire.
     
  9. Calypsis4

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    You did not consider this: "Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

    Again, the lack of attention to important details is costing you the full understanding of this subject.


    Darby did not teach Iraneaus, (A.D. 130-202) Cyprian (200-258), Ephraim the Syrian (303-373), nor the author of The Sheperd of Hermas(140 A.D.). They brought out the pre-trib rapture long before Darby was ever heard of.

    That's irrelevant. Please note again what I posted above; Acts 24:15.

    The difference is that the rapture will come at a time that men will be shouting 'peace and safety'..........BUT..........no one living near the end of the tribulation will be proclaiming 'peace & safety' during such a time of world war, bloodshed, chaos, and massive death on earth. No way.

    Your arguments are very poor.

    And...it is becoming increasingly evident that you are ignoring the import of Luke 21:34-36 in this matter. It only goes to show that the power of it's description is unmistakable and you are attempting to bypass the clarity of it. It is the pre-tribulation rapture promised there and can be nothing else.
     
    #9 Calypsis4, Apr 27, 2015
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  10. OldRegular

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    So the Apostle Paul agrees perfectly with Jesus Christ. That is to be expected since Jesus Christ is instructing Paul. Note that Paul states: there shall be a resurrection of the dead

    A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
     
  11. revmwc

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    The Resurrection of the dead is not in debate! The dead will be resurrected. The just will be resurrected, the believers of the Church will be resurrected and become the Bride of Christ. The Tribulation will take place and at the end those Saints who lost their lives for the sake of Christ will be resurrected but Jesus makes a clear statement to John the Revelator, Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." that you see is the resurrection of the Lost. John 5:29. "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

    Very clear after the 1000 years of Christ reign on earth. The ones who come forth to Damnation are seen her in Revelation 20 verse 5. We see their fate 1000 years later in,

    Revelation 20:11-15, 11"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    It is very clear the Resurrections of the just and the unjust don't take place at the same time. Made clear here in "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1:1"

    So to keep saying John 5 as taught by Jesus shows a general Resurrection contradicts what Jesus says in Revelation 20 verse 5. There will not be a general resurrection Jesus made it clear through John.
     
  12. Calypsis4

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    Of course Paul is in perfect agreement with Jesus. But you sir, are not.

    Quite truthfully it is very difficult to effectively communicate with someone who deliberately sidesteps important details: details that make the difference.

    There is a general resurrection of the dead which is yet to come...but there is another resurrection...of the unsaved; that is, those who must be judged eternally by the Lord after the thousand year millenium according to Rev. 20:5 as connected to Rev. 21:8.

    When are you finally going to deal with what Luke told us in 21:34-36? You've been avoiding that text since I first brought it up.
     
  13. Salty

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    Doesn't everyone know that the Apostle Paul preached out of his Scofield Reference KJV Bible!
     
    #13 Salty, Apr 27, 2015
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  14. Darrell C

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    If it was okay for Paul...


    God bless
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Unfortunately it was the 1917 edition. You see Scofield was confused.

    You of course realize that the cardinal teaching of the pre-trib-dispensationalists is that the Church is unknown in the Old Testament. Yet Scofield, one of the grand "pubbus" of pre-trib-Dispensationalism wrote in his introduction to the Song of Solomon {1917 ßcofield Reference Bible} the following {with emphasis for those challenged}:

    So obviously Scofield was confused but then Darby's pre-trib-Dispensationalism is confusing!
     
  16. Darrell C

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    That the Church began at Pentecost is a first century teaching of Paul and the Writer of Hebrews. It was first taught by Christ and foretold in the Old Testament, as Scofield's commentary points out.

    So do you also see David as the Messiah?

    Show how those called unbelievers and without faith and refused Gods rest...are the Church? Nor even Moses entered into the physical rest of God.

    You know what...never mind. lol


    God bless.
     
  17. revmwc

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    Darby's might confuse you. But the premillianism and dispensationalism that Paul taught is quite clear.
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Only through the lens of the false teaching of Darby and his so-called new revelation!
     
  19. convicted1

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    IMO, no...directed toward OP title question...
     
  20. beameup

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    The "Time of Jacob's Trouble" is strictly for the purification of Israel, so that the remnant may enter into the service of Messiah.
    Nine chapters in Ezekiel are devoted to the coming Temple where Messiah will dwell and rule the earth from Jerusalem (Ezek 40-48).
    The Tribulation has nothing to do with the Body of Christ, which will be removed from the earth prior to this time.

    And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet [Messiah's dwelling]
    where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile Ezek 43:7
     
    #20 beameup, Apr 28, 2015
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