Did The Bible Misquote Jesus?

Honestly, I can take you on a tour of homes of many of the leaders of these ministries and we'll see a marked difference than perception. And I'm not saying that people shouldn't live well. I live well. I am saying that parading around in a mask of "support support support" and "give give give" to the ministry when their lifestyle is what is being supported is a major issue for me.

Yeah but I've worked (formerly) on many of these campaigns. Once the ball gets rolling its a money making machine. Notice how many prominent Baptist preachers are now sponsoring "Jesus Cruises" where they preach at Christians and offer seminars on a variety of subjects all while charging thousands of dollars. Just seems our priorities are out of wack. That is my big point.

Where is the drive to support fledgeling churches and para-church ministries that do the task of the Gospel and not just talk about it?

Yeah, but even the seminaries have their day. Let me pose this question: How can a seminary (in which young men are struggling to pay their bills) legitimatize a $50,000,000+ new chapel when it already has one (that they paid $4,000,000 to upgrade 5 years prior) and doesn't need the space? How can a seminary legitimatize spending $5,000,000 on upgrading a preaching classroom to be a pristine replication of the "First Baptist Church" in America when many of its students need financial aid? The list does go on.

This isn't an issue of rich vs. poor for me. It's an issue of priority. Why do so many missions headquarters exist in lavish office buildings and have monstrous budgets that throw money at failing programs but whose missionaries live in and amongst squawlor laden areas and are desperate for funding to help actual Gospel ministry? It's an issue of priority. Not just with leadership but with the masses who throw money at the latest book, conference, sermon, and product line given to them. :saint:

 

Perhaps they had to pay White's expenses to travel and other expenses?

Is not the worker not worthy of his wage? Churches, ministries, and seminaries cannot do these things for free; most of them need money.

Businesses pay for travel and speakers. Pastors are usually paid. Missionaries are supported (usually poorly or not enough).

The reason I cannot go and speak at many conferences is because the ministries cannot afford to fly me there because even though they charge for admission, it is not enough to pay the speakers.

 

Ask the seminary. This has nothing to do with most ministries, seminaries and churches who do have speakers or conferences or debates.

 

Liars and deceivers do what? Now try and mop after that.

Shall we let Satan in the door to know what he looks like? Shall we entertain Satan so we can know how how he acts and thinks?

Sometimes intelligent people are stupid and arrogant and lack wisdom. I could easily appeal to your intelligence and rationalistic mind to convince people listening that you are not a Christian by using true statements, using the Bible as well, and never once taking the Bible out of context. In Bible studies I often do that to help people see what can happen when they do not know and understand their faith.

Education is learning by listening to a false teacher and a debater who opposes the false teacher? Rationalism does funny things to people. I can give a rational argument and in a matter of a few minutes get people to doubt and some will most likely believe. Would you invite me into your church to rationalistically show why you are not a Christian (when you really are) just for a debate just so they can see what can happen? How long would it take you to give people the truth and erase any doubt they might have? That is one of the reasons why we do not let Satan get a foothold and allow gossip. People will tend to believe what they listen to and if it is presented long enough, people will tend to believe it as truth even if it is a lie. They will even struggle with it even if they know what is true. So you are saying that you are willing to spend your time listening to a false teacher who is deceived, who only teaches lies, whose heart is hard, and has no desire to walk with God and then try to discern the truth, just so you can learn “something”? Ehrman is not just a speaker about textual criticism of which he knows little about, but he is also one who proclaims that he went from being a fundamentalist to an agnostic. He is not in any way seeking God. We know who his father is.

The U.S. government knows better. They do not believe in studying impostors but rather in studying the genuine article.

Even if Ehrman totally lost the debate what would those who were present have gained? They would have seen men debate but still not know for themselves what the truth is until they study the issue for themselves. Teaching the truth takes much less time and is easier than dealing with error. Ehrman will create error and leave the mess to those who will mop up later.

Much more would be gained by reading books written by men like Metzger, Aland, and Carson.

Mt 18 talks about what to do with men like that and Jude talks about what to do with false teachers. He has left the church and now is a false teacher. What part of his message are we suppose to listen to? Jude says that we are not to even give false teachers a greeting. Mt 18 says they are to be confronted and if they do not repent they are to be ousted from the church and treated as a tax gatherer. What part of that is not understood?

Inviting Ehrman to debate is like inviting the local Mormon bishop to your church for a debate so you can prove him wrong.

Here is a little of some similarity to Ehrman's arguments;
According to God's law, a man must not cut the hair at the sides of his head and he must not clip the edges of his beard. (Leviticus 19:27) If a man is a Nazarite who is specially dedicated to God - he must not cut his hair at all. (Numbers 6:5)The Bible tells us that Absalom, king David's son, was the most handsome man in all Israel: he cut his hair only once a year. (2 Samuel 14:25-26) The apostle Paul, however, wrote: "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?" (l Corinthians 11:14)

How could it be God inspired when there is not any agreement, right? Wrong, but how long would it take you to straighten someone out on the issue? Much longer than it took you to read it. If the person knew the truth already, he would not even finish reading such nonsense and know it was wrong.

Show me one verse in the Bible where the Christians ever invited a false teacher to come and teach or even debate.

I pastored a church that had a regular practice of inviting the Mormon bishop to come and preach. Man you talk about trying to deal with such a mess. There were people who exposed their fangs and rose up against me when I told them the bishop was not welcome to teach and preach. Some of the deacons told me he was a Christian. Imagine that! One of the deacons who told me the bishop was a Christian was on the state SBC church growth board.

One can spend their time studying and listening to lies and still learn something--lies or they can study the truth and learn--truth.

I spent some time studying under one of the best craftsmen in the world. I and the others quickly realized all that we had learned was not worth much and we had gone down a road being taught by those who did not know much but thought they did. In a short time we were producing the highest quality of work we had ever produced. I realized that the man teaching us never spent any time on dealing with why other methods were faulty. He just showed us how to do it right. Eventually we realized that his methods worked and why other things we had done on our own failed. He never told us why we had failures. we judged our failures against the truth.

I would never invite someone to speak in my classes who is ignorant, just to show my students what ignorance looks like and have to deal with why the person is wrong. A few years ago I had a student who worked for someone whose practices were very different than mine and I knew that his employer was wrong. I just continued to teach and eventually he realized that his employer was ignorant and had poor practices.

The standard of judgment is the truth and it is not found by knowing numerous lies.

Truth exposes lies but lies do not bring out the truth.

 

Let me challenge you to ask some of them to tell you about the disciples they have made and that will give you answers.

1 Jn 2:15, 16, "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world."

Their leaders have chosen not to humble themselves and lead the way. In contrast it is pleasure to have leaders who do though. Sometimes ask to examine their books and see how much the leaders are paid. The fact is that many pastors do not want their congregations to know what they make and they are often trustees in the organization.

 

Ps 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Why debate with a fool? Preach against their teachings, as the Apostle Paul did, but do not dignify their foolishness by debate.

 

How were the non-believers edified? I am not concerned about strong Christians as I am about those who are weak.

It is just another dog and pony show.

 

I have listened to Ehrman long enough to know that he is an agnostic and carries with him his testimony of having gone to some very good Christian schools and turning his back on God. How does that bring glory to God and edify anyone? That only goes one direction. He is not one who is open to God but quite closed by his personal choice. He is not ignorant but has deliberately hardened his heart. He did not seek the truth but rather but rather chose to embrace a lie.

The Bible declares that we are to focus on Christ not winning arguments. Where did Jesus ever debate Satan? If one takes a look at those who are winning people to Christ it is never about argument.

Ehrman is a leader among non-believers and you want people to listen to the debate. Even if Ehrman lost the debate it is likely he will cause doubt among some and one is too many. Look at Ehrman, he doubted and never found the truth. He left the faith as aresult of what he heard and read but did not do his homeowrk thorough enough. He is so hard that he will not listen to the truth.

 

People who hear these debates see that there are answers and refutations to what Ehrman says, and some of them learn these answers/refutations and it helps them with friends who are influenced by Erhman. I myself learn from things like this. Other Christians learn from it and some who think Ehrman has a point see him refuted.

 

How do you think what you wrote would compare with what Jesus did when he refuted people and debated with them? Ehrman is similar to the Pharisees.

 

Please read my post above. If this is edifying for believers, then it is so, no matter what you may think, although of course I am sure you will keep thinking it.

 

As I had taken a look at how Jesus debated people and I cannot remember seeing anywhere in scripture where Jesus did such a thing by entertaining hardened non-believers in a debate. I do not see in any place in scripture where he provided a platform for their ideas to be proclaimed to anyone.

My fear about the debate with Ehrman is that people will begin to listen to him more and buy his book. They will also read his book and find those they are surrounded by who cannot refute Ehrman.

It is much easier to teach the truth than it is to spend time refuting error. Anyone who hires employees will know that if they hire a poorly trained person that it may take years to correct their poor training but if they begin to train a person the right way then that person only knows one way.

The Christian life is not about debate so much as it is about the souls for people. Satan can very easily use any kind of doubt in people. Many are not wise enough to recognize such things.

Let me give you a real example of today. Students in colleges today were far better prepared academically than most of their parents were but you would not think so by the way Christian parents talk and complain.

If Hitler was able to initially win the support of the Christians what does that say about Christians being misled?

 

Yes, you have fears about it. Many don't. You can't prove your fears have validity.

You should accept the fact that for many, these debates are useful and edifying.

I think we've done this to death.

 

Did Jesus not debate the Pharisees?

The problem with not challenging people like Bart Ehrman is those seeking truth or even balance would find none if not for people like James White. As White pointed out in his debate,(paraphrase) Students raised in Baptist churches walk into the religion dept. at UNC (where Ehrman is employed) and hear his views. Being unfamiliar with textual variances issues because they are never addressed in most churches they find out certain passges were never in the early manuscripts and added centuries later. Now they are confused and wonder why this is the first they ever hear of such things. What else is my church "hiding" from me? Now they question the Bible and people like Ehrman have their hooks in them. Had 17 and 18 year old kids been exposed to a debate like this they would walk into UNC and just laugh at what Ehrman has to say instead of causing doubts and shaking of faith.

If the Church did it's job, James White wouldn't need to debate Ehrman or the Catholics or the Mormons or the Muslims or the Gays or the Armenians:laugh: .

Now lets take all the advertising off this site and let those in charge run it for free. Maybe the Gaithers will give me free CD's from here on out.

 

Its already happened and happening. Not just books but TV and radio.

And why can't they refute him? Because they've never been taught by their churches. Instaed of dealing with these issues we get "7 Keys to Successful Living" or "The Purpose Driven Life". Actual thinking and study is no longer expected in modern churches thus, no one can refute Ehrman. Except of course men like James White.

Thank God for James White whether one agrees with everything he teaches or not he's doing the work the church finds non-essential. Meanwhile we wonder why our culture is going to hell and our churches are powerless.

 

One can never claim to know God and turn his back on Him.
The problem is that we have entirely too many pastors and congregations who are lazy today. We have congregations who want to feel good and pastors who are willing to feed them sugar water. If every pastor fear God, studied and preached the truth rather than just hanging onto a job we would see churches that are without pastors and other thriving.

Once I started pastoring I was amazed at the number of pastors who could nto carry on a decent theological discussion from the Greek text and yet they had studied Greek and let their skills lapse. What profession can one let their skills lapse and be successful?

 

They are not fears. They are real. Know what gossip is and the effects it has in a church? That sort of thing has caused many pastors to leave over things that were said which were not true. Even though they were found to be true the damage is still there.

If Ehrman caused doubt in one person the damage has been done. It can take years to correct that.

Are you aware that the Mormons study people like Walter Martin and listen to their views and proofs in an effort to refute Christians? That is exactly what Ehrman is doing. Would you invite Ehrman to your church to teach his views so you can refute them.