Did the Son ask the Father to spare Him the agony of the cross?

I wouldn't say that the "cup" was exactly, precisely death...more like it was the penalty due for sin. (which usually involves death...but not always immediately)

In Isaiah Israel is told to drink a cup..I think it is also in Jeremiah and possibly Zachariah as well.

The "cup" there in the Old Testament is always poured out double for "Believers" for their sins...and they must drink it.

since Jesus paid the price for our sins...it was that "cup" that He was drinking from...which was going to result in his crucifixion...after a period of torture.

I find the prayer in the Garden of Gethsamane (and if you know what an olive press was or how they worked...) more about the faith of his disciples. He was afraid for them and very troubled about their waivering faith. (especially if the contested parts are removed).

This crucifixion and being dead for a while was going to shake the faith of the Apostles and disciples. Jesus always wanted this part to happen...He said so many times in many ways...the part that he didn't like was the waivering faith of the Apostles and disciples. He was always worried about that. His participation in this crucifixion was going to shake their faith...it was ultimately going to be for their benefit...but for three days their faith was going to be shaken severely.

 

Mark 13:32--"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

 

If in the garden Christ was praying not to die in the garden so that He could go to the cross, then he certainly was not praying in such a way that He Himself would become a false prophet. Again, as I pointed out before, when He prayed "except I drink it" (meaning the cup of possible death in the garden) it was a third class conditional sentence in Greek, so Christ was just presenting a hypothetical.

 

Sorry, I missed that. I don't know how you get this view from the Hebrews passage. I'm afraid your view is very rare--in fact, I've never heard of it until now. (And I did a grad paper on the subject of this thread.)

 

When Christ asked his Abba Father to take this cup (death) from him, that is what He meant, but He also qualified His request by saying that it was not to be done by the sake of His will but that whatever occurred would be the will of God.

Christ knew how, when and where He would die for us. He was not afraid of death in the garden because He knew it was not going to happen that way. He did not worry about God not raising Him from the dead, because He knew that could not happen. When He told Peter to put away his sword it was for the protection of Peter and the rest of the disciples. He knew He would not die in the garden. He knew that it would be the cross, and the agony and torture He would endure. He knew He would arise in three days because He knew the prophesy that was being fulfilled.

Like Bro. Jim1999 said "IF" there was another way! Christ meant "IF" that way was God's will.

That is the way I read the scripture if I don't twist, turn and massage the Word.
Prayers for all.

 

You're welcome, kyredneck.

It's late Saturday evening here in Japan, and I need to hit the sack soon to rest for a good Sunday tomorrow. But I really want to share the tremendous devotional impact of the interpretation of the garden prayer that in it Christ was praying to be saved from death in the garden.

Note the parallel passage in Luke 22: "41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

So Christ prayed in "great agony," with a physical condition known to be caused by great stress. One account of a person who died from this was a nun who died when Nazi soldiers came into her convent. So Christ was under the incredible stresses of betrayal by loved ones, facing the cross when He, the sinless One, would bear our sins. And He prayed in "great agony" and God the Father sent an angel to strengthen Him. This moment is what I think Heb. 5:7 is referring to.

In my younger days I had a vague idea that stress was sin, or at least caused by sin. But according to this passage Christ the sinless One was under great stress! So I have learned from this passage that it is not the stress that we are under but how we respond to it that matters. How to respond when betrayed, attacked, ignored and opposed on the mission field (or at home)? Prayer and trust! And God will surely answer His precious children when they are desparate and sorrowful and in great agony, just as He answered the prayer of Christ.

Oyasumi nasai. ("Sleep well.") :sleeping_2:

 

After further reflection and study.

I looked in Luke, Mark, and Matthew at these passages...and their context.

The Luke account is rather interesting. If verses 43 & 44 are removed (they are contested as being original) then what comes about clearly is that Jesus is praying for the disciples/Apostles. Jesus deeply cared for people...especially the three. He was about to be crucified and then be raised from the dead. The apostles and disciple's faith was going to be shaken and then Jesus was to depart shortly after being raised from the dead. Jesus had spent three and a half years with these guys on a personal daily level. He called them his friends, brothers...even going to far as to claim that they had (as everyone should) as intimate relationship as a marriage did (aside from the physical intimacy and romantic love).

Jesus was going to miss the daily walk and talk with the Apostles and disciples...and the apostles and disciples with him. (The Lord God being one) Jesus knew himself as well as the disciples. Their world was about to turn upside down. Their need of faith building to be strengthened by prayer was immanant. Jesus was always building up the faith of the disciples and Apostles. This one act was going to shake their faith to it's core. Running and hiding and never again mentioning the name had to be thoughts running through their minds.

I know others see this all differently...but the good, passionate, loving Jesus that I know worries more about me than I ever do about him.

 

He prophesied that He would die on the cross, then feared that stress might kill Him in the Garden? You still haven't avoided the difficulty. Did He think He could be a false prophet?

 

It is certainly true that Christ's resurrection was prophesied. And of course all of the prophesies you mentioned were fulfilled and He did rise from the dead. But I don't see why you think that Heb. 5:7 is describing that event or that the prayer in the garden has any connection with it. Please enlighten me.

 

If this is referring to Christ's resurrection, it is a very unusual way to say it. There is no other place in the NT where Christ's resurrection or any other resurrection is referred to in this way. It is always that He is/was raised (lifted up) from the dead (not "death," but "the dead," plural in the Greek) meaning dead people, or to translate literally, "from among the dead people." However, Heb. 5:7 is "save from death," which even in English we take to mean saved from the act of dying.

 

"He was heard"...

But does this mean that He was saved from death in reference to the resurrection?

Luke 22

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.​

Or that the Father "heard" Him and strengthened Him for the ordeal of human death by crucifixion?​

I believe the persona of Christ in His humanity cringed in normal human fear of the horrible kind of death He was to endure.​

Hebrews 4
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.​

Verse 16 says that this help is also available to us in a time of need.
This is (perhaps) how the early martyrs walked into the mouths of lions without fear.​

HankD​

 

And, does it have anything to do with the prayer in the Garden?

 

That's an interesting question Aaron.

I believe it does and you saw my response.

But since you ask, unto what other experience in the life of Christ might it be in reference?

Thanks
HankD

 

The Jews conspired against Him throughout His entire ministry. Jim1999's post (referenced above) is exactly right.

 

I'm afraid you've only given references from the OT, therefore Hebrew idioms. Hebrew idioms sometimes do occur in the NT, but this one does not. Furthermore, none of your OT references have as a meaning of resurrection what we were discussing in the NT: "saved from death." So I'll stand pat.