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Featured Did the Son of God Die?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by th1bill, Jun 5, 2012.

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  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Strings, First off it is incorrect about Him having human flesh after his resurrection. The bible says that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus had flesh and blood before His death.
    1Cor 15:15
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    So Yes He had a body that looked like ours after the resurrection but it was not human flesh and blood like ours according to scripture.
    Even we who remain will one day be changed to go and be with our Lord as flesh and blood cannot enter in. (1Cor 15:53)
    As to your question the bible says that The son of God died and was in the tomb (dead) for three days and three nights.

    Rev 2:8
    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
     
    #142 freeatlast, Jun 8, 2012
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  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Psalm 51:11
    Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

    Is it Gnostic dualism if God takes back the Holy Spirit when He gave up His spirit to return in three days?

    Is Jesus the son of man spirit the same as the Holy Spirit?

    2 Corinthians 5:16
    So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
     
    #143 psalms109:31, Jun 8, 2012
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  4. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Here is a statement from the OP.

    "But the question is, “Did the Son of God die?” The answer is no."

    The Son of God was not the Son just in spirit and not in flesh. Such teachings are gnostic and dualism. The Son died according to scripture. I know where this false teaching that He did not die comes from, 1Peter 3: 18,19
    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

    That passage does not say that He went during those three days while dead. He did this after He was resurrected and receiving His resurrected or spiritual body. The victory was not complete until He arose. He was made alive by the Spirit and rose from the dead and went and preached.
     
    #144 freeatlast, Jun 8, 2012
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  5. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    1. Jesus ate fish. He had a glorified, perfect body. Are you saying he only appeared to have have a body, but did not really rise bodily?

    2. You have miss-quoted a verse, it does not say flesh and blood cannot inhereit heaven, but the "kingdom of God." It is told that we will have New Bodies (flesh and blood) in the new heaven and new earth...

    3. As to my question, you did not answer it.
     
    #145 12strings, Jun 8, 2012
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  6. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    -I agree, but that's not what I said. Jesus was fully man and fully God, but the question remains: What was the state of his spirit (fully God & Man) for the 3 days after his death? If you say it ceased to exist, you say Jesus "died" in a way that is different than EVERY OTHER PERSON WHO DIES.

    Agreed, but if you say His spirit ceased to exist, or even ceased to be aware, for 3 days, you are imposing a definition of death onto scripture that is not their. Simply saying "he died" does not define death.

    The bible says Christ "upholds the world by his power", and "in him all things hold together...The world did not cease to exist for 3 days, therefore Jesus' Spirit was not inactive for 3 days.
     
  7. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Yes He ate fish and we will eat also in the kingdom, but He did it in a new Body that was not like the body He had before. The new body for one could never die again. It was not flesh and blood.

    Yes I saw I did misquote the passage and corrected it. However it is nothing but semantics. Jesus did not have a human body as you claimed after He arose because the human body is flesh and blood and can die.

    As to your question, yes I did answer it. You simply reject the bibles answer for another.
     
  8. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    You keep asking the same question and the bible keeps giving the same answer. The Son of God was dead for three days and three nights.

    No the scripture does not say what you just wrote. There is no wonder why you are not able to accept what the bible says, The Son died and was dead for three days and three nights and rose after the third day.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    convicted1

    You are omitting one significant fact that everyone else except Dr. Bob [post #83] has apparently ignored. The following, with added emphasis, was posted earlier!

     
  10. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    You have yet to answer what you believe to be the state of Jesus' (fully God and human) spirit during the 3 days after his death. You say he was dead, so do I...but you do not define dead.

    My Mother is dead...Is her spirit dead? Or is it simply not connected to her body?


    As to scriptures...

    Hebrews 1:3 - He [the son, see v. 1-2] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    Col. 1:17 And he [Christ, see v. 1-15] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Who was holding the universe together if Jesus' spirit was inactive, or non-existant?
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The resurrected body of the Son of God raised from the dead.

    Yes, He died and was resurrected, after three days His soul/spirit reunited in His glorified body.

    The nature of death:
    As human beings our soul/spirit continues on after death.
    This is essential - that Christ soul/spirit continued on and was received by the father in the same way as we seeing He is truly man.

    Then comes the judgment and ultimately the assignment of the eternal dwelling place of the soul/spirit.

    At His death, Jesus the Son of God's spirit returned to the father.

    We are not told the details of that "exodus" except that after the three days He raised Himself from the dead.

    The annihilation of and/or the sleep of the soul of the dead is unknown to true Christianity.

    Some people throw around terms such as gnosticism and in some cases obliquely accusing some brethren of such (or so it seems).
    There are precious few religions who hold to gnosticism as taught in the first 2-3 centuries of the church and in fact perhaps none.

    Jehovah Witnesses have some gnostic beliefs inherited from Arianism of the first 2-3 centuries. At that time Gnosticism was a very complex and elaborate system of progressive emanations from a demiurge within a myriad of other fables, myths and unending geneolgies, etc....

    I have studied and researched gnosticism from the extensive writings (20,000 plus pages of writings) of the apologetics of early church fathers and contemporary gnostics and can assure you that IMO no one who has posted here at the BB even comes close to holding a gnostic belief system except perhaps one tenet in one area. Some cultic groups hold to a few.

    If someone here who has addressed gnosticism in this thread wants to start another thread challenging that statement I may very well engage you.

    Make your opening premise/statement and bring forth your evidence from gnostic writings or even church father rebutals compared to these posts of those who are allegedly holding to gnostic beliefs.

    e.g. The JW's teach that 1) Jesus ceased to exist at His death and that 2) the body He was raised in was not the same body He died in.

    In effect they teach that He (Jesus) had to be re-created by God (the demiurge at the top of the emanation heap) purified from His "evil" flesh in His final emanation.

    Once, I asked a JW "what then happened to the "evil" body Jesus died in?".

    The answer - The disciples came and took it away to a secret place and disposed of it.

    Here is a question I would ask of all. A question to determine if someone holds to a "gnostic" (Arian flavor) tenent concerning the death of the Son of God which I ask of JW's, Mormons, Moonies, even "orthodox" Christians etc...:

    Was the resurrected body of Jesus Christ the same body He died in?

    If you say NO, then you hold a dogma in common with a JW arian belief.
    If you say YES then you are orthodox in belief.

    NOTE: It was the same body but energized by the Spirit and not oxygenated mortal blood. Therefore He was no longer flesh and blood but flesh and spirit (materially speaking "flesh and bones").

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.​

    This is essential to the question "did the Son of God die?.

    Yes, He did and His body went into the grave.

    However His soul/spirit continued on after his death at the will of the father. His soul/spirit did not cease to exist.


    HankD
     
    #151 HankD, Jun 8, 2012
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  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Good luck on getting a response. I posted the passage from Colossians with a similar question and got, Nothing!
     
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I answered you wiht scripture. It is up to you to accept scripture or reject it. As To your question here the bible does not give an exact answer because of the way you worded it. However the Hebrews passage says "he upholds the universe by the word of his power."
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    OR: Would God have become flesh with out that blood? NO
    Matt. 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (flesh and blood) and shall bring forth a son,(flesh and blood) and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (As flesh and blood) The Son, begotten of God.

    The life (to be) (be-gotten) of him. Lev. 17:14 For [the blood, it is] the life of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life thereof: The Word, God became flesh through birth from the virgin Mary. God the Father and God the Son of the Father.
    That word translated life in Lev is the word nephesh, soul the life that is the blood is the soul life. Isa 53:12 because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,


    BTW, I am almost 70. I grew up in the Presbyterian Church and have been a member of and presently attend the same Southern Baptist Church for 35 years.

    Through Jesus the Christ brought forth by the Virgin Mary, God: but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil. 2:7,8 YLT


    Also one of the readers of the threads should address my question of why before the man Adam who was created in the image of God, male and female, the man who sinned and brought death to man; Did GOD determine that his Son born of the woman taken from the man created in the image of God would be slain and at the apparently same moment in time made a promise, the hope of eternal life.

    Was this promise of hope made for? As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Or was it made for? And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Just how do you all, ya'll where I'm from think God settled the sin problem in man and why was there even a sin problem with the man created in the image of The Almighty God?
     
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Are we, omnipresent, or is it just the two places we can be at one time, in Christ?

    Have you inherited the kingdom of God?

    Are you still flesh and blood? Is there yet a change in the future before you the living soul Hank can inherit the kingdom of God.

    Why does Hank have to have a house from heaven? The same reason Hank to be in this world has to have an, earthly house of tabernacle.
    In order for Hank to be found in the presence of God, in the world to come, Hank is going to need to be clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    When and how does Hank believe that takes place.
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 12strings View Post

    Hebrews 1:3 - He [the son, see v. 1-2] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    Col. 1:17 And he [Christ, see v. 1-15] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Who was holding the universe together if Jesus' spirit was inactive, or non-existant


    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:1-6 KJV

    When do either of you believe God the Father appointed His, Son heir of all things? V2
    Now in Verse 4 it is stated, by inheritance he obtained a more excellent name, than the angels.
    What name do you believe this to be?
    God through the Holy Spirit tells you in the next verse and also tells you when this inheritance of obtaining took place. Son, by resurrection from the dead. Rom. 1:4 And declare the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
    When do you believe he inherited the upholding of all things by the word of his power?

    Actually you find out in chapter 2 that mankind was created for that same purpose, however from understanding the whole of the word of God you find this was not the intent of man in the image of the first man Adam but for the man, that would be born again, in the image of the last Adam, Jesus the Christ. 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Heb 2:8,9,10 But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, (Resurrected from the dead. crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Read chapter 5 also.

    Colossians says the same.

    1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; (Thou art my Son this day have I begotten you) that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
    1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    (In the kingdom of God.)
     
    #156 percho, Jun 8, 2012
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  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The Spirit of Christ is omnipresent.

    Yes and no.

    Both flesh and spirit, my flesh and spirit are in constant conflict.

    It is the will of God for His children.
    Not sure, it depends on His coming.

    HankD
     
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Was the soul, the soul that had been poured out unto death, Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God resurrected from the dead?

    Help for those who may need it: Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades,

    Hades, OT Ps 16:10 shĕ'owl

    From Wikipedia: Sheol: She'ol (play /ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.[1]
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    jesus died physically, his spirit/soul stayed alive, for His very nature is that of God!

    When he was physical dead those 3 days, God the father still was upholding all things!
     
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