Did the writers of the gospel copy from each other or another source?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, May 10, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    How can this be explained? Exactly the same words and the same word order. This can only be explained by copying.
    But why should Matthew copy from Luke are vice versa? Why should they have done this when God inspired them? How does this fit together with inspiration? :confused:
    This really sucks. This sounds like the gospels are based on oral traditions, memories and when one gospel writer did not know how to continue he simply copied from another writer. This doesn't sound like inspiration. [​IMG]


    Quote from: Matthew 3:7-10 (Nestlé-Aland 26)
    Idwn de pollouv twn Farisaiwn kai Saddoukaiwn erxomenouv epi to baptisma autou eipen autoiv, Gennhmata exidnwn, tiv upedeicen umin fugein apo thv melloushv orghv? poihsate oun karpon acion thv metanoiav; kai mh dochte legein en eautoiv, Patera exomen ton Abraam, legw gar umin oti dunatai o qeov ek twn liqwn toutwn egeirai tekna tw Abraam. hdh de h acinh prov thn rizan twn dendrwn keitai; pan oun dendron mh poioun karpon kalon ekkoptetai kai eiv pur balletai.



    Quote from: Luke 3:7-9 (Nestlé-Aland 26)
    Elegen oun toiv ekporeuomenoiv oxloiv baptisqhnai up' autou, Gennhmata exidnwn, tiv upedeicen umin fugein apo thv melloushv orghv? poihsate oun karpouv aciouv thv metanoiav; kai mh archsqe legein en eautoiv, Patera exomen ton Abraam, legw gar umin oti dunatai o qeov ek twn liqwn toutwn egeirai tekna tw Abraam. hdh de kai h acinh prov thn rizan twn dendrwn keitai; pan oun dendron mh poioun karpon kalon ekkoptetai kai eiv pur balletai.
     
  2. tragic_pizza

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    They copied from each other to a degree I think. Also, depending on the manuscript family, you may be seeing an instance of scribal harmonization.
     
  3. StefanM

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    The writers were inspired to draw upon all the traditions, texts, and memories they had available to compile their gospels. Yes, there is some overlap, but that doesn't destroy inspiration!

    Inspiration doesn't require "out of the blue" composition. If the words are true, couldn't God inspire the authors to use them?
     
  4. Jarthur001

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    xdisciplex,

    I still would like to know if you are saved? you have yet to post anything to support the faith. Just one word would do...do you trust in Christ as your only hope for salvation?

    I have asked this before and you never replied.

    If so..why not post a few things you believe in..and not always attach. Just a idea xdisciplex
     
  5. donnA

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    what do you expect them to say, something different from each other, if so they wouldn't be trust worthy, and probably not even true.
    God is the author of scripture, He inspired men to write, th story line was His own. Since Jesus is the central figure, and everythnig He did is true, then they are going to look the same in some areas.
     
  6. rbell

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    disciple...

    So what if they copied from each other?

    Don't place 21st-century copyright laws on 1st-century apostles.

    Reading one eyewitness account might help spur my memory, if I'm also an eyewitness.

    You're trying to define how inspiration must happen. How God inspires the Gospel writers was His business, not ours.
     
  7. xdisciplex

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    Man what are you trying to imply?
    That a saved person would not ask such questions?
    But I ask such questions because they are important. Maybe there are christians which do not even care about such things and simply can have this blind faith but I can't have blind faith which needs no answers. I need answers. I simply have a different imagination of inspiration somehow. Maybe I am too romantic, I don't know. But I would prefer it if God had simply told them exactly what to write down. Everything which sounds like they researched stuff sounds rather like they based their writings on their research and not on what God told them. When they researched stuff then it doesn't mean that what they found out is not correct but somehow it doesn't fit together with how I imagined inspiration. :(
     
  8. StefanM

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    Luk 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us,
    Luk 1:2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us,
    Luk 1:3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
    Luk 1:4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.
    (ESV)

    Luke himself admits researching.
     
  9. Jarthur001

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    Man what are you trying to imply?
    That a saved person would not ask such questions?
    But I ask such questions because they are important. Maybe there are christians which do not even care about such things and simply can have this blind faith but I can't have blind faith which needs no answers. I need answers. I simply have a different imagination of inspiration somehow. Maybe I am too romantic, I don't know. But I would prefer it if God had simply told them exactly what to write down. Everything which sounds like they researched stuff sounds rather like they based their writings on their research and not on what God told them. When they researched stuff then it doesn't mean that what they found out is not correct but somehow it doesn't fit together with how I imagined inspiration. :(
    </font>[/QUOTE]It is very easy.

    Do you trust in Christ as your Lord? If so, you will not get mad for me asking this, but only know I'm sharing my faith. If not...I would like to talk with you.

    Again..i have asked before..no word yet. I ask this becuase I have never seen one post from you where you agree with the faith. I have not read all post...but I have read many.

    Maybe you would like to know...I am saved by the blood of Christ. Christ is the only hope for sinful man. I now share my faith with others with hopes of expanding the kingdom.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to understand better. We all do this. But we all also believe in something. I have no idea what you believe..you only attack. If you post one time..I'll know.

    Its that easy [​IMG]
     
  10. xdisciplex

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    Man I am not attacking!
    I am asking questions. Attacking would look totally different. Why should I attack the bible? I am simply honest about my feelings.

    Do you trust in Christ as your Lord?

    Yes, but this doesn't mean I am immune against attacks on the bible. The bible is the foundation and when the bible is attacked then it drags me down. :(
     
  11. gtbuzzarp

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    Just look at their profile, it's that easy :D

    But really. Skimming thru xdisciplex's posts it looks like they are honestly seeking answers. And my guess is that Germany is terribly dead spiritually. As a German foreign exchange student once told me, churches are either museums or where old people go.

    It must be much tougher to be a Christian in Germany than here, and my guess is there aren't the plethora of Christian bookstores, etc, in Germany like here. We are blessed (and in some ways cursed) to be have access to so many Biblical resources, that I think we take for granted what we have.

    I have a relative overseas who always stocks up on Christian books and music when they come to visit, because they cannot get that stuff where they are.

    Sorry if I went overboard, I don't want to discourage xdiscplex from asking questions, if they are honest searches for truth. Which it seems to me they are. ;)
     
  12. xdisciplex

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    Hi gtbuzzarp!

    What the exchange student said is pretty true.
    There are also born again christians in Germany but not as many as in the USA and also not as many churches. Ressources are not the problem, I can also get christian books in Germany but books are not as helpful as real people. I have so many books at home which I never read..
     
  13. DHK

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    Out of the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the first three are generally called "Synoptic Gospels."
    Synoptic comes from the prefix "syn" meaning "the same," as in "synonym," and "optic" meaning "seeing" as in optical. Thus the word means "seeing the same." The Synoptic Gospels see things the same way. They are similar in nature, record many of the same events, and even have similar wording. How does one account for this. As has already been inferred, it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Matthew, out of these three, was the only direct eye-witness. He was a tax-collector (also called Levi), that followed Jesus. His gospel is the longest. He accurately recorded many of the events of our Lord's life and presents Jesus as the Messiah, the King. His primary audience was to the Jews.

    Mark worked closely with Peter. When Peter was released from prison in Acts 12 he went to Mary's house, the mother of Mark. Thus Mark gleaned much or most of his information from Peter. He presents Christ as a servant. Notice there is no geneology in Mark. As a rule, people are not interested in the geneologies of servants. His primary audience is the Romans.

    Luke travelled extensively with Paul on his missionary journeys. Luke states in both of his introductions in the Book of Luke and in the Book of Acts the purpose of his writing. He tells us how he researched his work.

    Luke 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
    --The writings that he had accumulated were first hand accounts, written by eye-witnesses. Luke (as well as Paul) was educated. Luke is known as "Luke the physician." He presents Christ as the Perfect Man. His primary audience is to the Greeks.

    These three gospels have much in common. They are the synoptics.
    Then there is the gospel of John. John was the youngest of all the disciples and lived to be of much greater age. His gospel was written around 90 A.D., the last to be written and well after the others. Matthew was the first, possibly as early as 50 A.D. One of the reasons of John's gospel was to present supplemental information that the others had not given. He already had the synoptics in hand.
    But the primary reason is given here:

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
    --John's gospel is very different. There is no hint of him copying from anyone. His gospel is unlike the others in every way. John presents Christ as God, as Deity. His audience is the world. "For God so loved the world..."

    Each gospel is inspired of God. They are God's words to mankind. We do not need to question God's method of how he decided to reveal himself to us in this day. He does so through his Word, His inspired Word. We accept it by faith.

    There are many other accounts in the Bible written by eye-witnesses:
    Peter wrote two epistles.
    Paul saw the Lord and wrote half the New Testament, well at least 13 epistles.
    Both James and Jude were half-brothers of Jesus. They witnessed many of the events of Jesus life.
    Though the Book of Acts was authored by Luke, Luke records the exact words of others: Peter's sermons, Paul's sermons, the words of Philip, Stephen (the longest sermon in the Bible), etc.

    In all we have 66 books of the Bible written over a period of 1500 years, by about 40 different authors without any contradictions, all writing about the same theme--redemption through Christ.
    DHK
     
  14. gtbuzzarp

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    Guten tag xdisciplex!

    Wo kommen Sie aus? Ich komme aus Texas.
    Verzeihen mir bitte aber mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut. Ich habe Deutsch studiert seit sechs Jahren , aber ich habe fast Alles vergessen.

    Ich wisse eine Kirche aus Bremen.
    www.ibc-bremen.de

    Some folks from my church moved to Germany and attend there.

    Time for me to go.
    Tschuess!
     
  15. DHK

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    There is your question and your answer Jaruth001.
    No need to ask it again.
    DHK
     
  16. gekko

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    i think it was the "Q" document...

    but i dont think there's proof of that... who knows?

    all i know is that it is God inspired - therefore God told them what to write.
     
  17. xdisciplex

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    Hi!
    You don't have to speak German I understand English pretty well. ;)
    Bremen? Well, that's a bit far away I'm afraid. [​IMG] It's always funny when somebody says that he knows a somewhere church in Germany and then expects me to go there. Germany is small but it's not that small.
     
  18. xdisciplex

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    Thanks DHK. [​IMG]

    I guess I somehow had a wrong imagination of what being inspired means. I thought about it and supposing the writers had simply sat down and then done some sort of automatic writing without having done any research then it would also be a bit strange. Even though I bet God could also have simply dictated them everything which he wanted them to write down. The problem is that when Luke talks about research then is this compatible with the idea that in the end God somehow still made sure that they wrote down exactly what he wanted? Or did God leave them some freedom to express themselves and only guided their works? Because when the bible says that it's "breathed in" by the holy spirit then this sounds very much like it's 100% the way God wanted it to be. Or when Jesus says that the holy spirit spoke through David then this also sounds like David was only a vessel and he wrote down exactly what God told him to write down.
     
  19. DHK

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    2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    --God used each man's personality.
    Isaiah was refined, cultured and highly educated. It shows in his writings which contain some very poetic pieces of literature.
    Amos was a shepherd and grower of sycamore trees. He was a simple farmer with no training at all. His message was blunt and simple calling the nation of Israel to repentance. Yet through these men God said exactly what he wanted to say. The Holy Spirit guided them along and inspired them to write in their own style just the words that He would have them to write.
    I hope that makes sense.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    DHK
     
  20. xdisciplex

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    Yes, I know what you mean.
    But if you think that the bible, as the word of God, is eternal and has always existed then does this mean that God also knew exactly who he was going to pick to write down the different books? Because if Isaiah had been written by a different person then the outcome would also have been different because this person would have had a different style.
     

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