Differences between the TR and Alexandrian

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Boanerges, Feb 28, 2006.

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  1. Boanerges

    Boanerges
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    Sealing the 144,000

    Below are some different translations of the verse in the book of Revelations that speaks of the Name with which God seals the 144,000. Both the King James Version, the LITV, as well as the YLT and other reformation Bibles translated from the Textus Receptus, state that only the Father's name is written in their foreheads, while the modern versions state that two separate names will be written.

    Revelations 14:1

    KJV " . . . having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

    LITV " . . . with the name of his Father having been written in their foreheads."

    NIV " . . . who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads"

    NASB ". . . having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads"

    ESV ". . . who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads"


    As you can see in the comparison of the differences derived from the two Greek texts in the above translations, the top texts lists only one name, while the bottom texts lists two. In the Alexandrian the Greek word for name occurs twice, while it occurs only once in the TR.
     
  2. Phillip

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    What about the Majority texts?

    After all, the TR is not really a pure mixture of majority texts.
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    Even more of an argument for me to stick with the KJV!
     
  4. Phillip

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    Is "His" Christ or the name of the person?

    I don't think it matters because this is most likely indicating a symbolic sealing of the person.

    Just because it does not occur in the KJV certainly does not mean it did not occur in the original manuscript; which we no longer have.

    I asked about the Majority texts and haven't gotten a response yet.

    You cannot judge a translation simply on what you think that translation ought to say. ...and sometimes, we may never know which one was the original.

    This is the reason I like footnotes with various readings from various manuscripts.
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    His is referring to Christ if you read the text. But it still adds an extra name to the seal.
     
  6. Phillip

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    If that is the case, then I certainly don't see that as a negative, since Christ is our redeemer.

    Of course, it still depends on the original manuscripts and since I am not a Greek scholar I will defer my opinion to those who are.
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    This should answer that question about the Majority Text

    Rev 14:1. Add "his name and" before "his Father's name". G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF

    G Griesbach 1805
    L Lachmann 1842
    T Tischendorf 1869
    Tr Tregelles 1857
    A Alford 1849 as revised in 1871
    W Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870
    WH Westcott & Hort 1881
    NA Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)
    HF Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985

    Info found at www.bible-researcher.com
     
  8. Johnv

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    Interesting thing about the 144,000. The Puritans of the 1600's interpreted this to mean there would only be 144,000 people in Heaven.
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

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    as do the Jehovah's Witnesses, only heaven will be here on earth, they say.
     
  10. Johnv

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    Interesting. I didn't know that.
     
  11. Phillip

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    He is right about Jehovah's Witnesses, but it doesn't make a lot of sense because it only applies to living people.

    Only 144,000 can be on the role at once and there is a waiting list. If you don't make it, you just get burned up all at once and cease to exist.

    If you get on the list, before you die then you are a lucky one.

    Well, off subject, but nobody's complaining (so far.) [​IMG]
     
  12. standingfirminChrist

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    People Will Fry?
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    ASV Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

    BBE Revelation 14:1 And I saw the Lamb on the mountain of Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, marked on their brows with his name and the name of his Father.

    DBY Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing upon mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written upon their foreheads.

    DRA Revelation 14:1 And I beheld: and lo a Lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

    ESV Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

    GNV Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and lo, a Lambe stood on mount Sion, and with him an hundreth, fourtie and foure thousand, hauing his Fathers Name written in their foreheads.

    KJV Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    MRD Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and behold, a Lamb stood on mount Zion; and with him the number of a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written upon their foreheads.

    NAB Revelation 14:1 (1 )Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, (2 )and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

    NAS Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and behold, (a)the Lamb was standing on b)Mount Zion, and with Him (c)one hundred and forty-four thousand, having d)His name and the (d)name of His Father written (e)on their foreheads.

    NAU Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, (a)the Lamb was standing on b)Mount Zion, and with Him (c)one hundred and forty-four thousand, having d)His name and the (d)name of His Father written (e)on their foreheads.

    NIB Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

    NIV Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

    NKJ Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

    NRS Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion! And with him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

    PNT Revelation 14:1 And I loked, and lo, a lambe stoode on the mount Sion, and with hym an hundreth fourtie and foure thousande, hauyng his fathers name written in their foreheades.

    RSV Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

    RWB Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred and forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    TNT Revelation 14:1 And I loked and loo a lambe stode on the mount Syon and with him C. and xliiii. thousande havynge his fathers name written in their forhedes.
     
  14. Boanerges

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    Byzantine Majority

    kai eidon kai idou [to] arnion esthkos epi to oroV siwn kai met autou [ariqmos] rmd ciliadeV ecousai to onoma autou kai to onoma tou patroV autou gegrammenon epi twn metwpwn autwn


    It has onoma (name) twice.
     
  15. Boanerges

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    The translations from the Textus Receptus in Revelations 13:17 state that there are three things that one will accept. They are the mark, or the name, or the number of his name. The modern versions derived from the Alexandrian texts only interpret it as two, being the name or the number of the name.

    Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
    kai ina mh tiV dunhtai agorasai h pwlhsai ei mh o ecwn to caragma h to onoma tou qhriou h ton ariqmon tou onomatoV autou

    Alexandrian
    kai ina mh tiV dunhtai agorasai h pwlhsai ei mh o ecwn to caragma to onoma tou qhriou h ton ariqmon tou onomatoV autou

    As you can see by the transliterated texts above, the top text has the Greek "ay", which does not occur in the bottom text. This is why it appears as "or the name, or the number", instead of the combined "number of the name"
     
  16. Boanerges

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    Double post....duh
     
  17. Phillip

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    Thank you, Boanerges, that is good info.
     
  18. Deacon

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    This is not a TR verses Alexandrian text discrepancy!
    It's actually TR verses the Majority text discrepancy.

    Here the King James Version actually left out some words.

    The majority text corrects the err.

    The NKJV based upon the MAJORITY TEXT reads:

    "...who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads." Revelation 14:1c

    It is supported by the earliest discovered manuscripts as well.

    Rob
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Revelation (with no 's') 14:1 (HCSB = Christain Standard Bible
    /Holman, 2003/ ):

    Then I looked, and there on Mount Zion
    stood the Lamb, and with Him were
    144,000 who had [/b]His[/b] name and His Father's
    name written on their foreheads.

    The new convention among Bible translators is to honor
    members of the Holy Trnity by capatilizing their pronouns.
    In this HCSB translation of God's Holy Written Word, the
    Holy Bible, 'Him' and twice 'His' is capalitized. The sentence
    is about 'the Lamb' refering to our Blessed Lord and Savior:
    Messiah Iesus (KJV1611 Edition).

    BTW, I note the translators of the Bible denote what the sentences
    are by their puncuation. The puncuation is NOT in the source Bibles,
    but is put in BY THE TRANSLATORS.

    Some older Bibles, Especially the King James Versions (with an 's',
    there are more than one), do not used the modern giving of honor
    to the members of the Trinity by captalizing the pronouns referring
    to these members of the Holy Trinity.

    So here is another Revelation 14:1 (KJV1769 Edition):

    And I looked, and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and
    with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having
    his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Notice that the 'his Father's name' refers to the Father of
    'a Lamb' NOT the Father of a member of the 144,000.

    Now, is anybody interested in complex English reasons
    why 144,000 here is 'an hundred forty
    and four thousand' instead of the more usual 'seven score a four
    thousand'?

    Does anybody know how a person can be a Borean, reading their
    Bible, when the quote they see is from a Bible they don't read
    for religious reasons?

    The lead-in post here does not list the whole verse so one can
    figure from what is here what the pronoun antecedent might be.
    (except the NASB does show the antecedent of 'His' is a member
    of the Holy Trinity.) This could cause confusion in the minds
    of people unskilled in the 8th grade level of
    figuring out who the antecedent of the pronouns are.
     
  20. Boanerges

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    Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus

    kai eidon kai idou arnion esthkos epi to oroV siwn kai met autou ekaton tessarakonta tessares ciliadeV ecousai to onoma tou patroV autou gegrammenon epi twn metwpwn autwn


    As you can see, onoma only appears once in the TR text.The KJV translators, translated it correctly as written in the Greek.

    Now the Alexandrian:

    Alexandrian
    kai eidon kai idou to arnion estos epi to oroV siwn kai met autou ekaton tesserakonta tessares ciliadeV ecousai to onoma autou kai to onoma tou patroV autou gegrammenon epi twn metwpwn autwn

    As you can see there is two names in the Alexandrian.
     
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