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Differences in the "Timing" for Christ's Return

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by lastday, Sep 27, 2010.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Please read my post again. I am not committed to a "rapture" as you atrribute to "Pre-Tribbers" however it is a possibility. In any case, you are correct and we agree that grace believers will not endure the wrath of God, not for an hour not for a day or whatever time period.

    I do believe that our Father in Heaven will provide protection to grace believers during the entire 7 year period of "Jacob's Trouble" either by rapture or whatever choice He deems fit.

    That is not to say that we won't have our faith challenged during that time just as the Hebrews fleeing from Pharoah.

    But I don't see a "Pre-Trib" rapture as an impossibility.
    Why should "kept from the HOUR of Trial facing all mankind" keep God from removing grace believers 7 years beforehand?

    I do take note however that the tares of Matthew 13 are "bound" as well as being reaped subsequent to being burned. So there may be some time increment between the gathering, binding and burning.

    Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    "To burn them" - the infinitive form though aorist is generally timeless and non-committal in terms of temporal relationship to the gathering of the wheat "into my barn".

    This is of course speculative theology. We'll have to wait and see to fill in the blanks.

    There are elements which I have conviction:
    The distinction between the Church and Israel.
    The restoration/redemption of Israel.
    The visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign for 1000 years.
    The Rapture (we will meet Him "in the air").
    The final conflagration - 2 Peter 3.
    The eternal state following the Final Conflagration.

    This is more of a summary than a detailed list.

    HankD
     
    #21 HankD, Sep 29, 2010
  2. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    I see your response as producing additional problems re God's "people".
    You Write:

    What's the "status" difference between OT saints and your "grace" saints? Do you not include both OT and NT saints
    within the New Building of Eph. 2:15-21? Do you exclude the great tribulation saints as part of this One Body?

    Are the Martyrs coming out of the great tribulation period among the "grace" believers? On what basis do you state that
    Christ "Reigns 7 years as part of 1000 Years"...with only 993 years left after He begins to reign"? Rev.11:17; Rev.19:6. How are these Martyrs NOT part of the First Resurrection
    when "God brings their souls with Jesus so that He raises up all believers on the last day...and raptures all the surviving Saints to meet Him before the HOUR of Trial on
    the Last DAY?

    I don't see any Scripture for splitting the Body of Christ or Bride of the Lamb into two groups...one made up of "grace" believers
    and another composed of non-grace believers! I see one HOUR for the rescue of 144,000 Jews from earth; one for raising up the
    Two Prophets to heaven and one for catching up surviving Saints before the HOUR of Trial begins!! That final HOUR may occur on
    a Saturday for the Gentile population; but may occur for Israel on a Sunday!!!

    You Conclude:
    Jesus said the "tares are reaped and bound" before the wheat is gathered.
    They are not "bound and reaped subsequent to being burned" as you state.
    The earth is reaped and the Armageddons gathered prior to the Hour of Trial.
    Mel
     
    #22 lastday, Sep 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2010
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Only by distinction, perhaps a poor choice of words as you are correct everyone who has or is or will be saved will be saved by grace.

    "church" age believers is a better signifier as opposed to those believers who were saved while under the law of Moses.

    No, I don't see them as part of the church age do you?

    Good point, I will look into that.

    I clarified my nomenclature earlier. I should have said Church age believers vs. non-church age believers.

    Read what I said again Mel:

    "there may be some time increment between the gathering, binding and burning"

    Then read the passage again Mel, there is not one word as to the timing of the burning of the tares. Yes it does say to bind them and gather them First (before gathering the wheat into the barn) it doesn't say when the tares will be burned within the "time of the harvest".

    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

    The phrase to burn them is an infinitive with a definite article (a verbal noun) and could have been translated and bind them for the burning.

    When you talk about Saturday vs. Sunday and what year these things will happen (I think you said 2033?), well, honestly Mel, you lose me.

    HankD
     
    #23 HankD, Sep 29, 2010
  4. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    HankD,

    In Post #21, your wrote:
    The quick response is that He will remove ALL the Saints from earth (including the Great Tribulation survivors who may
    or may not be killed before the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come")! The 7th Trumpet sounds when
    the "appointed (kairos) time has come to judge and reward all the Saints"!!
    It will sound at the END of the Age...on the Last DAY in the Post-Trib View!!!

    Since you do NOT "see the martyrs coming out of the great tribulation during the Church Age"; but afterward, are you saying Jesus does NOT include
    them within the Body of Christ during the Endtime and until the End of the Age? Here you miss a major fact by stating:
    I submit you have overlooked the timing.

    Jesus said the "Wheat belongs to the Kingdom"...not just the Church!
    He did INDEED place the "time of the Harvest at the END of the Age"!!
    Both the Sons of God and sons of Satan grow together until the END!!!

    I don't see how you can exclude Trib-Martyrs from the Bride of the Lamb!
    Nor the 144,000 Jews who are the living "Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb"!!
    They are the "souls of the dead and bodies of the living who come with Him"!!!
    Mel
     
    #24 lastday, Sep 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2010
  5. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Rev 6:9 (ESV) When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
    Rev 6:10 (ESV) They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
    Rev 6:11 (ESV) Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

    I've often found that the verses above cause some problems for those trying to fit the end time events into a dispensational format.
     
    #25 glfredrick, Sep 30, 2010
  6. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    Hi glfredrick,

    Thanks for your observation about Rev.6:9-11 which promises the Martyrs
    that they will be avenged in a short time. You wrote:
    I believe the role of the Martyrs in God's Endtime Plan constitutes a very important Key in discovering the order of events in Revelation...
    especially the order of Lastday Events!

    You have noticed, I'm sure, how their plea in these verses plays into the consummation of the time for God to avenge their blood!!
    Their plea is broadened to that of singing the victory song of Moses before God in Rev.15:1-4 (as they join the 144,000 Jews singing the song of the Lamb)
    and they are the first to be recognized in the Temple of heaven when it opens for Praise and Prayers and the Proclamations of the Angel of the 7th Trumpet!!!

    And have you considered the final reference to their "sitting on thrones in judgment"?
    Could this be a Flashback to their combined role in witnessing the evidence during the half-hour display of 6 Trumpet Judgments in the Court Scene of Seal 7?
    Do you see the Chiasm (Inverse Parallelism) between Rev.8:1-5 with that of Rev.20:4-6?
    Do not both texts highlight their participation (including the necessary role of the Two Witnesses in a Trial) to incriminate the wicked being found guilty as 6
    of 7 Trumpets go on open display with the Martyrs sitting in Judgment?

    All 7 Trumpet Angels appear at once...not after the Court sits in Judgment; but before it sits in judgment! Rev.8:2.
    Only 6 of the 7 go on "open display" as soon as the Scroll opens when the Lamb breaks the final seal...the 7th!!
    If this should be the order while the Signs of the Day of Wrath warn of impending wrath as of the 7th Trumpet,
    then the 7th Trumpet Angel should immediately follow the Verdict by the Angel of Fire by "Proclaiming the appointed time has come"
    to avenge the blood of the Martyrs by "destroying earth's would-be destroyers"!!! Rev.11:15-18 would follow Rev.8:1-5.
    Mel
     
    #26 lastday, Sep 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2010
  7. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I'm not sure we can be so confident of the timing as you appear to be...

    I'm always wary of setting times or thinking that I truly grasp all of what God is going to bring about during the end time events. That is not from lack of study, I like many believers, have studied the Scriptures -- indeed, we are promised a blessing for doing so and I'm greedy for God's blessing in a healthy way.

    I'm constantly reminded by the gospels that the professional keepers of God's Law in 1st century Jerusalem -- persons who KNEW the Scriptures well enough to challenge the Son of God on their content -- totally missed what God was ACTUALLY doing versus their preconceived notion about how the advent of Messiah would come about.

    I know that we can (and should!) know the season of the times, and be "watchmen on the wall" concerning the events of the end times, and so we are. But when I see a brother starting to make statements like you have, I get really nervous and have to fight my innate desire to turn tail and run from God's lightening bolt to come. :laugh: To stipulate that the last day will be partially in Saturday and in Israel, Sunday, plus to suggest a year, etc., is going too far based on what we can actually see in Scripture (versus what we think we can puzzle out using our very flawed human reasoning).

    In the meantime, the discussion is great and thought provoking. Just don't ask me to be a part of date-setting schemes. After all the work I've done in this area I am sure of just two things... Christ is coming back to receive His own unto Himself and we won't know exactly how that is all going to happen, but we have to be ready in any case.
     
    #27 glfredrick, Sep 30, 2010
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Questions Mel:

    When are the tares sown in the kingdom? In the apostolic Church and they grow up with the wheat until the Harvest?

    Are the 144,000 Jews actually Hebrews from the twelve tribes or do you see "twelve tribes" as symbolic.

    If the 144,000 are true Hebrews after the flesh, are they the beginning seed of "Redeemed/Restored Israel/Jacob/Judah"?

    Amos 9
    8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
    9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
    10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
    11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
    12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
    13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
    14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
    15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.​

    HankD​
     
    #28 HankD, Sep 30, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  9. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    glfredrick,

    I appreciate hesitancy regarding date-setting because we cannot know for sure that the "End is Near" until the 1260-day
    countdown begins with five predicted and yet-to-be recognizable "Catalysts" that will launch these Endtime days!

    Indeed, the caution by Jesus about not "knowing the day or hour" has no connection to the Countdown until we see the
    Two Prophets coming from heaven to "stand before the God of earth" to contest the works of Antichrist.
    So those who expect a Pre-Trib Rapture have no reason to be concerned.
    But those who are "alive and remain until God brings the souls of the dead in Christ with Jesus" at His SC will be concerned!!
    Rev.16:15; I Thess.4:13-17.

    It is only Endtime Believers who "live and survive" to the very End of the Age who will experience the fulfillment of Rev.2:25-26.
    It is they alone who are warned against setting the exact Day or Hour. Putting myself in their shoes and guided by Hosea's "two days"
    (2000 years) until Christ returns for the "redemption of His former people" is not a matter of setting the date; but of anticipating the
    possible year. And that, we find, is a common practice as in the case of Dr. Mark Biltz who has chosen either 2014 or 2015 as the most
    likely year(s) for the "redemption of Israel"!!!
    Mel
     
    #29 lastday, Sep 30, 2010
  10. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Lastday, you may or may not realize this, but many have come before you setting dates. They have all been wrong! Some have hurt tons of followers. I only hope that you are not one of those type of leaders.


    I flatly reject the dispensational view of end time events, but as I said above, I am also no preterist. I just don't know and am willing to watch and wait to see what God does, then do whatever (whatever!) He calls me to do when that time comes. I'm trying to not miss Christ like SO many did in the 1st century when they were SO sure about how all the Messianic prophecies would come about.
     
    #30 glfredrick, Sep 30, 2010
  11. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    You write:
    The identity of the 144,000 Jews cannot be a symbolism for various reasons.
    ONE, The list of 12 Tribes in Rev.7:1-8 omits the Tribes of Dan and Ephraim.
    God omits these two tribes from representation in the Bride of the Lamb for
    having committed gross idolatry...i.e., Jeroboam's sin at Bethel and Dan for the Tribe of Ephraim and the sons of Dan for establishing the northern temple of idolatrous worship in the far north of Israel.

    TWO, they are redeemed bodily from the earth to "follow the Lamb wherever
    He may go" just as the Martyrs will "serve God in the Temple of heaven and
    be shepherded by the Lamb" for 1000 years as a special reward for them alone. Rev.14:1-5; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6.

    THREE, The 144,000 are "Firstfruit of the living unto God and the Lamb" just as Jesus was the "Firstfruit of the dead". They join the Martyrs in heaven
    before Christ descends to gather the rest of the Saints for the Wedding of the Lamb.

    The list of 12 Tribes, upon their restoration to the land, will include both Dan
    and Ephraim. Ezek.48. But the 144,000 represent those "redeemed from the earth"; not those "re-gathered" from the lands on earth to inherit the Kingdom
    of Earth. The Davidic Kingdom will exist on earth forever. Ezek.37:24-28.
    Mel
     
    #31 lastday, Sep 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2010
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Mel, that is my inclination that they are true biological Hebrews as well as believers in Messiah, after all God has his own private recording system of biological geneologies which also include the number of hairs of the head.

    I see you make a distinction between the 144,000 and re-gathered Israel.

    The Valley of Dry Bones.

    Interesting.

    HankD
     
    #32 HankD, Oct 1, 2010
  13. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    You write:
    Hank,
    There is a distinct difference between the list of 12 Tribes who become part of the Bride of the Lamb and the 12 Tribes who inhabit the promised land of Israel during the Millennium. This very distinction reveals the existence of two Peoples of God...one composed of the Lamb's Bride and one that will first be restored to Israel for 1000 years
    and then, after separating sheep nations from the goats, it becomes their inheritance in an earthly Kingdom forever.

    Please note in Ezek.48 that the Tribe of Levitical Priests have their own land in serving the 12 Tribes...but not AS one of the 12. They are not among the 12 as listed in 48:1-7 nor in 48:23-27. Also notice that Ephraim as well as Manasseh take the place of Levi and Joseph in the division of the land.

    More interesting is the omission of the names of Joseph's two sons among the names of the 12 Gates of the City! Ezek.48:31-34. These same names will likely carry
    over on the Gates of the eternal Holy City in the New Jerusalem!! This not
    only reveals that God rewards the Tribes of Israel according to their works; but, despite the Amil and Preterist views that allegorize so much of Scripture,
    reveals the evidence for a literal Millennial Reign of Christ to prepare the nations for an eternal Kingdom on earth or residence in Hell
    makes much better sense than that of spiritualizing the text and destroying the Administration of God's Plan for the Ages to come!!!
    Mel
     
    #33 lastday, Oct 1, 2010
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Mel, I've often wondered about the differing lists of the Twelve Tribes.

    I've never noticed that in Ezekiel 40-48 detailing the Millennial Temple that the Levites will have a territorial possession. Twenty five thousand by ten thousand temple measuring reeds (Cubits?).

    Thanks
    HankD
     
    #34 HankD, Oct 1, 2010
  15. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    You write:
    Hank,
    Details such as the role of the Levites during the Millennial Reign of Christ
    reveal God plans to use the nation of Israel to reach Gentiles in one final revelation of Himself as the Savior of entire nations...not just individuals.

    The message of Salvation by Grace thru Faith will be modified to one in
    which mankind will be blessed for worshiping God whlile His very Presence
    on earth proves His Sovereignty while Satan is banished from the earth.

    The final test, with Satan loosed from the Abyss for a short season, must
    be the ultimate evidence that man are judged based on their response to God's kindness and mercy...but with the consequences of that response being irreversible, inexcusable and eternal.
    Mel
     
    #35 lastday, Oct 3, 2010
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Mel,

    Yes I understand that one day Israel will again be used of God and His promises to her fulfiled to the letter.

    John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


    HankD​
     
    #36 HankD, Oct 4, 2010
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Strange that you should ask "Lastday". The variation is largely in how the scirpture are read. IMHO (in my humble opinion), the key words are:

    first
    LAST
    DAY
    and

    Maybe I should change my name to "ANDFIRST". Then the two of us would have the four words covered :)
     
    #37 Ed Edwards, Oct 23, 2010
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    HankD: // What is so troubling to me and many others are the ways in which we get "carried away" and insult each other either directly or by innuendo and verbally hack each other to pieces over "Shibboleth vs. Sibboleth".

    Personally, I am fascinated by these differences and wish we could get over the unpleasantries.

    But we are Baptists.

    You know, ask 10 Baptists a question and you will get 12 answers and a black eye (a figure of speech of course). \\

    You are about correct there HankD.

    // "Shibboleth vs. Sibboleth". \\

    Did you mean Chevy vs. Chevorlet? ;-)

    I personally do not think there is much reason to sputter over eschatological, last dayz, theories. However, I do believe that the end times are in progress and have been since AD 0033 (some say AD 0030, so the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the decrecation of temple mount by the gentile Romans come exactly forty years after the Resurrection of our Beloved Lord and Master: Messiah Jesus).
     
    #38 Ed Edwards, Oct 23, 2010
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Agreed.

    1 John 2
    18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    HankD
     
    #39 HankD, Oct 23, 2010
  20. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    Hi, My Friend Ed Edwards again,
    You wrote:
    The year AD 33 was first determined as a likely year of Christ's death
    by John Newton. It has been established as the only year in which it
    could occur because of the total lunar "blood-red" moon on Friday of
    April 3 in that year. I have given BB members the source of evidence.
    Both NASA and the USNObservatory agree it is the only possible date!

    What do you think the greatest accelerator of "End-Time" sputterings
    (I like that word) will be in the next few years? I believe it will be the
    discovery of Oil in Israel...the "spOIL" that Russia and the surrounding
    nations seek to steal when "God has put the hook into their collective
    noses" to invade. God has chosen an American Christian, John Brown,
    to be the founder and President of the Zion Oil Co which has rights to
    325,000 acres and for 10 years has been surveying and is now drilling
    neat the "boot" of Asher to find the oil predicted by Jacob for Israel !!

    I will take the lead and venture that this "discovery" will jump-start all
    nations to create a global entity to "regulate and govern" Mid-Eastern
    economic factors that will quickly lead to a far more exciting prospect
    of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesied "end of time" days as of 2030!!!
    You may go to www.zionoil.com
    Mel
     
    #40 lastday, Oct 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2010
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