Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

tnelson, To whom was Jesus speaking when He said this in verse 44?

Yes, it was to the jewish religious leaders in the synagogue in Capernaum. Now if you put the picture together, the Jews were Hardened by God. "He came unto his own and his own received him not" God had hardened the Jews hearts so that they rejected His only son. But,

Now, without doubt, there were but few Jews who came to Jesus because the Father drew them.

However, due to the hardness of heart of the Jews, the gospel was opened up to the gentiles who would accept it because their hearts had not been hardened by God. And it was God who said, Whosoever will may come, leaving "the coming" to human belief and choice.

 

Unless you are a Jew.

Bro. Dallas

 

Not true, because the whosoevers include the Jews. It is quite simple Frogman, the Jews refused to believe Jesus is the Messiah they had long waited for.

The hardening of the jews occured earlier also, because they did not believe the report of Joshua and Aaron, but instead believed the reports of the other ten scouts sent into the land. Therefore God caused them to continue their wanderings for another generation, denying them entry into the promised land.

 

Your question then could also include Satan, for he truly believed that Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah. Satan knew from before the foundation of the world, that Jesus is who and what He is. But that did not stop Satan from attempting to usurp the Throne of God. And as the Story Goes, Satan gets it in the end by being cast into the lake of fire.

So it is not so much what you believe as what you do with your belief.

Faith cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God. Hearing is "writing the word of God in our hearts and minds". It is what we have in our minds by which we are persuaded. Persuaded meaning believes. It is the word that we hear that persuades us.

The Gideons have reams and reams of testimonies of people who have come to know Jesus and believe in him by "reading the Gideon Bibles in motel and hotel rooms". Many pick up the Gideon bible out of boredom, some due to outside weather conditions, some out of loneliness. Few because the Holy Spirit caused them to, but we don't know that for a fact. We do know that faith is not "implanted into humanity from an external source", because faith is something that man is to have, not receive.

Is "hearing" an instantaneous event? In most cases No! Just as anything we come to believe, we must have time to evaluate it and determine for ourselves whether or not it is believable. If it is believable, then we accept it as part of our belief system. If not believable, we do not include it.

We often hear the comment "I don't believe it!" after some accomplishment has been made. Yet, the result of the accomplishment is in truth belief that it did happen and not unbelief. We did after all, witness the accomplishment. We saw it happen or we see the result of it happening. We don't have much choice but to accept it.

However, with spiritual things, it is not so easy to distinguish as with physical things, and that is where belief actually comes into play. We hear promises of that which we would hope will happen to us, but we have no tangible evidence that it does, in fact, happen to us. So we develop faith in the promise because we have no proof. We hear the promise, like the sound of the promise, and decide for ourselves whether or not to believe the promise.

 

Originally posted by Yelsew:

I don't understand this kind of thinking. Were the Jews hardened in order that the Gentiles can be the whosoevers...or were the Jews not hardened? You seem to support both premises in the above statement found in Romans 11.5:

If the Jews are originally hardened, then why does Paul make the statement

And then again in Romans 11:

And again:

And again:

And again:

I can't see your statement following scripture. Can you help me?

Bro. Dallas

 

We have a twentieth century example of the condition of the Jews in Jesus time.

Look at Russia under Communism. The government of the USSR would not let their people learn and understand Democracy or Capitalism. The Governement was hardened against democracy. However, the people who believed in something better and could escape to democracy, did so.

The hardening of the Jews is the same thing, though slightly different. The leadership of the Jews were hardened against Christianity BY GOD! Hardened to the point they killed it's originator. Even so, those Jews who do believe in Jesus to be the Son of God, the Messiah, receive salvation in the very same manner that the gentiles do and that is through faith.

 

Why did Paul speak the passage above?

Bro. Dallas

 

Let me say that I believe that Paul may be wrong when he interpreted progeny to mean only one person. For The Hebrew of Genesis 12:7 that Paul quotes, says "seed", and not "progeny". In all of God's creation, I don't know of a single plant that produces only a singular "seed", as Paul is using the term. Plants always produce many seeds from each plant. Animals, particularly Mammals, are different, many of them normally produce only one offspring with each pregnancy. So Paul could be saying that out of Abraham will come a singular progeny. Abraham was a man of faith, Salvation for mankind comes about by Faith in Jesus, the Christ.

 

Hi Yelsew,

Let's go way back for a moment. Way back before there were Jews or the nation of Israel.

God CALLED Abraham out of UR. When God speaks to a person, he hears and obeys. Or maybe it was the stars and the sun and the moon (creation) that spoke to Abram's heart.

Think about it.

 

Gorillas are upright

Bro. Dallas

 

The Question is, Did Abram have faith in God? If NO, then it was only blind obedience by which Abram obeyed God.

I believe that Abram already had an established faith in God and that his FAITH is what caused his obedience to God's call. That is why he left Ur to go where God would take him.

The same with Noah! It was not blind obedience that caused Noah to spend all those years building a boat, IT WAS AN EXISTING FAITH IN GOD! You see, man has the ability to have faith in an unseen God, just as we today have the ability to have FAITH in an unseen God.

 

Are you just now recognizing that fact?

 

The Question is, Did Abram have faith in God? If NO, then it was only blind obedience by which Abram obeyed God.

I believe that Abram already had an established faith in God and that his FAITH is what caused his obedience to God's call. That is why he left Ur to go where God would take him.

The same with Noah! It was not blind obedience that caused Noah to spend all those years building a boat, IT WAS AN EXISTING FAITH IN GOD! You see, man has the ability to have faith in an unseen God, just as we today have the ability to have FAITH in an unseen God. </font>[/QUOTE]Who said anything about blind obedience?

I'm talkin' revelation of the Living God.

This results in faith.

 

The Question is, Did Abram have faith in God? If NO, then it was only blind obedience by which Abram obeyed God.

I believe that Abram already had an established faith in God and that his FAITH is what caused his obedience to God's call. That is why he left Ur to go where God would take him.

The same with Noah! It was not blind obedience that caused Noah to spend all those years building a boat, IT WAS AN EXISTING FAITH IN GOD! You see, man has the ability to have faith in an unseen God, just as we today have the ability to have FAITH in an unseen God. </font>[/QUOTE]This is what I have been trying to tell you. There is regeneration in worked by the Holy Spirit prior to an individual's being called as Abram, or Noah, or Moses, or David, or Solomon, or....me.

You see how simple it is Yelsew? God Regenerates; the individual hears the call of God and obedience occurs....and all this by the Grace of God and for the Glory of His Grace.

Amen.

Bro. Dallas

 

If you are saying that hearing the word brings faith, then you are saying what I have been saying all along! It's about time that you confessed this truth!

However, you have been posting all along that man cannot hear the word of God without first being "regenerated". THAT is simply not supported in scripture.

 

I am sorry you misunderstood me. I understood you to be saying the only reason Abram heard and obeyed was because he already had an established faith in God.

I took this to mean what I mean when I say that man must first be regenerated, simply because Abram, or no other man for that matter will possess faith in God apart from being regenerated.

Bro. Dallas

 

Jesus disagrees with you, see John 3.3.

 

"Born from above" You are saying that means that God "regenerated" man. I say that in context Jesus is telling Nicodemus, that in order for man to see the kingdom of God, man must "born from above", that is, have a renewing of the human spirit through faith, and that faith comes from "hearing" and believing! Spiritual rebirth is by faith alone. If you do not have faith which comes from hearing you cannot be born again! If you do not have faith in God you would never invite him to come in to your life. "Behold I stand and the door and Knock, If any man hear and open the door, I will come in and sup with him and he with me" If you do not hear the knock, you will not open the door! Thus, "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

Throughout scripture, Faith is the overriding element in understanding the things of the Kingdom of God. If one does not believe, one cannot understand, that is, "see" the Kingdom. Truly, one cannot see heaven through elements of the physical life. It is by faith alone that we can see any part of the kingdom of God. It is only when our spirit departs the flesh that we can see God as he is, for it is then spirit seeing Spirit!

 

Jesus did not go into all that explaination. But when questioned he simply said if I have told you earthly things and ye believe not how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

This doesn't mean anything to you?

Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to just have faith and he could "born from above". He said except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom.

How can a man born himself from above, man is not from above? Is he?

How can man influence a spiritual birth when he cannot influence his physical birth?

Some questions that I am sure you deal with often if this is the way you present the Gospel to anyone. Man must "born again" what does that mean?

Man does not even have the power to reproduce physically except God blesses.

You really ought to develop a theology that does not have man as its center.

Focus on the DAYSMAN.
Bro. Dallas