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Differences WITHIN "families" of mss...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by robycop3, Jan 24, 2006.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    From the KJV...

    Matthew 27:37
    And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    Mark 15:26
    And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    Luke 23:38
    And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    John 19:19
    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    The only common denominator is "KING OF THE JEWS". These differences are much-larger than those seen between "families" of mss, so it seems that one should apply the same standards used to accept all four of THESE readings, all within the same "family" of mss, to the differences BETWEEN the mss "families". To not do so appears to be using a DOUBLE STANDARD. The only other alternative would be to pick-n-choose among the four readings & guess which one is right.
     
    #1 robycop3, Jan 24, 2006
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Are you forgetting something Roby?

    There are 3 languages involved here: Hebrew, Latin and Greek. So, there could theoretically have been three (or more) different NT koine readings because we don't know which language each of the Gospel writers was quoting/translating from.

    How come "three or more"? because of allowable differences of translation.

    For one thing there is no definite article in Latin yet each of these superscriptions included has definite articles supplied (assuming one of them represents the Latin).

    Combining of the translations from the Hebrew/Latin into the koine IMO is not out of the question either.

    HankD
     
    #2 HankD, Jan 24, 2006
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Appreciate your input, Hank, but the name JESUS OF NAZARETH doesn't need any articles to make it appear or not appear.
     
    #3 robycop3, Jan 24, 2006
  4. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole New Member

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    Really each is a partial account and all are correct what it said in totality is:

    "This is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews"

    When you put all four Gospel accounts together you get the inscription
     
    #4 IFB Mole, Jan 24, 2006
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The question has absolutely nothing to do with the differing families of manuscripts. It deals with the different perspectives of the gospel writers.

    The differences between the two major textfoms best represented in the manuscript evidence has nothing at all in common with the different perspectives of the gospel writers. When we examine the variants between the two major textforms we discover that most of them are spelling differences, or minor word differences. In about 2% of the variants, different words will be used which seldom impact the meaning of the verse. In the cases where the meaning is impacted, it is usually fairly easy to discern the origin of the variant. In most cases we have a fairly good understanding of how dittography, haplography, or homoeoteleuton can alter the text.

    We must also realize there were willful mutilation of some ancient texts, such as the corruptions inserted by Marcion and the Docetists in the mid 2nd century AD.

    And there were other editorial adjustments made, the most notable being the Alexandrian Gnostic change made in Codex Vaticanus in John 1:18, and the scribal gloss found in Mark 1:2.

    To cavalierly dismiss these variants would be a grave error and do a serious injustice to the text of the word of God.
     
    #5 TCassidy, Jan 24, 2006
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Couldn't the various writers of various 'families' of mss have differing perspectives also?

    It's not a cavalier dismissal, but an answer to the argument that "MY mss can whup YOUR mss" by showing that differences exist WITHIN the various 'families' that are often greater than the differences BETWEEN the 'families'.
     
    #6 robycop3, Jan 24, 2006
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    <sigh> Cranston, there is a HUGE difference between an Apostle writing what the Holy Spirit moves him to write, and a copyist copying an existing manuscript. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. There is no such thing as an arange or an orpple.
     
    #7 TCassidy, Jan 24, 2006
  8. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Some non-Christians cite "editing" by Christians as a reason to justify their lack of faith in the Bible and I believe these types of differences between the gospels are strong evidence that editing the text to harmonize apparently conflicting passages was not something Christians through the ages did. They are reflective of the fact that the gospel writers, while God inspired, were humans writing narratives from their own perspectives.
     
    #8 Gold Dragon, Jan 24, 2006
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Thanx, GD. It's the same principle for the differences between 'families' of mss.

    DC...You know quite well that EVERY ms after the originals is a copy. JESUS read aloud from a copy of the OT which you've said was one of at least two Hebrew versions in use at that time/place. Thus we see that even the AUTHOR of the Scriptures accepted slightly different versions.

    And we're really NOT SURE what sources were used by each of those various writers of differing 'families' of mss, are we?
     
    #9 robycop3, Jan 25, 2006
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    My point is that IMO the differences are not due to scribal problems but due to reasons having to do with the human authors and/or their preferences in the manner in which they translated the Hebrew and Latin (being moved of the Spirit of course).

    HankD
     
    #10 HankD, Jan 25, 2006
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Which is completely beside the point. All Greek manuscripts agree regarding the inscription on the cross. The differences between the gospel accounts are not due to editing, error, or anything else. They are due to the different perspectives of the gospel writers, the intended target of those different gospels, and the theme of the different gospels.
     
    #11 TCassidy, Jan 25, 2006
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Doc Cassidy:Which is completely beside the point. All Greek manuscripts agree regarding the inscription on the cross. The differences between the gospel accounts are not due to editing, error, or anything else. They are due to the different perspectives of the gospel writers, the intended target of those different gospels, and the theme of the different gospels.

    The same could (not "is" or "probably")be true for the majority of mss. We don't know if they were written to export Scripture, preserve scripture, or for what exact purpose. Every writer of anything has a different perspective from that of any other writer. Thus, the differences 'tween mss could be also due to the reasons you list above. After all, they were written in different times and places from each other.
     
    #12 robycop3, Jan 25, 2006
  13. Boanerges

    Boanerges New Member

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    Dr Cassidy. Is there a site where we can find any of your text crit articles posted? I think that I would enjoy reading them.
     
    #13 Boanerges, Feb 3, 2006
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