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Different Gospel

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Rev. Joshua, Nov 20, 2002.

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  1. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    I was going to let this comment (made by one of the moderators) slide, but it occured to me that he may have actually meant this.

    OK - here's the gospel.

    - We're all sinners.

    - Our sin keeps us from being in full relationship with God. It keeps us from finding real peace, and from reaching the full potential of who we are capable of being.

    - The good news is that God loves us completely and eternally. God loves us so much that God took the form of a human - Jesus - and died on a cross for our sins. On the third day Jesus physically rose from the dead.

    - That sacrifice, of God-in-the-flesh, atoned for our sins and reconciles us with God if we will open our hearts to it.

    - Opening our hearts means submitting to the authority of God as opposed to submitting to our sinful desires and the addictions of our weaknesses. Opening our hearts means recognizing our own imperfection and inability to acheive our own salvation. Opening our hearts means following the example of Christ, and freely sharing with others the mercy and love we have receiced. Opening our hearts means seeking the will of God through prayer, study, and fellowship with other believers. Opening our hearts means finding, in our emptiness, a place that can be filled by the holiness and beauty of God.

    - The Holy Spirit works in the believer's life to transform them, through the sacrifice of Jesus, into a person who is not defined by the limitations of this world.

    How is this a different gospel?

    Joshua

    [ November 20, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]
     
    #1 Rev. Joshua, Nov 20, 2002
  2. JIMNSC

    JIMNSC New Member

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    That's solid gospel in cotton country, Joshua! [​IMG]
     
    #2 JIMNSC, Nov 20, 2002
  3. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    If I remember correctly, Joshua, you have previously stated something to the effect that the congregation of which you are a member teaches "repentance." I take it that this statement (the quote above) is "repentance." Is this correct? If so, it isn't a bad defintion.

    I think the problem is not so much in your verbal definition as in your "living" definition. Homosexuality, abortion (infanticide), etc.

    Rev. G
     
    #3 Rev. G, Nov 20, 2002
  4. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Joshua is not a liberal in the 1927 traditional meaning of the term "liberal". Those liberals against whom men like Machen fought so valiantly, denied the very deity of the Lord Jesus Christ; the virgin birth, the plenary verbal inspiration of scriptures,,,,the fundamentals of Christianity.

    There are many in the church to-day who believe all the fundamentals, with a liberal social application. Some differ as to whether we can do this, so be it, that is why we have different fellowships. This way we can worship as we see it and not offend, but still remember that our ultimate fellowship is in the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and all the rest are peripherals.

    I am a political socialist. Does this make me evil? To some, perhaps, but that is their "political" choice. Am I godless? Indeed not. I am as solid in the Christian faith as anyone, bar none!

    I believe Joshua has stated his love for the Lord Jesus before and his twice-born experience. He differs on some applications. That is his choice, and as Baptists, who believe that is one's right to interpret scripture as he feels led by the Holy Spirit, who are we to say they are wrong? Are we to deny that great Baptist distinctive?

    I fellowship with Anglicans. I even married one. Many of these folks know Christ and worship the Lord in their churches as much as I ever did in my Baptist churches. Did you know that the Anglican Church even practices baptism by immersion on the mission field? They have also made provision for adults who convert to be immersed if they request it.

    I am not and never will defend the old liberal theology, but I will defend to my death the rights of individual Christians to differ with me on some theological viewpoints.

    Discussions are fine, and rewarding, but personal assasinations never accomplish anything.

    Cheers in the Lord of glory,

    Jim
     
    #4 Jim1999, Nov 20, 2002
  5. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Rev. G.,

    That's my definition of repentance. I try not to speak for my congregation. It invariably leads to a call from the Deacon Chairwoman [​IMG] .

    As for my "living definition" - no one here can speak to that since no one here knows me personally. Do I lead a life that demonstrates mercy and love, piety and prayer? I try.

    Do I have some disagreements with some here on specific issues of behavior and bibilical interpretations? Certainly - but those types of disagreements date back as far as Peter and Paul. Committed, saved Christians who believe the gospel still disagree on some things.

    That has nothing to do with the gospel, however.

    Joshua
     
    #5 Rev. Joshua, Nov 20, 2002
  6. tfisher

    tfisher New Member

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    Joshua,

    Liberals are often accused of being afraid to mention the real consequences of sin for fear of offending someone. I was just wondering if you believe that unrepentant sinners will spend eternity in Hell. The reason I ask is because your statement mentions nothing of the eternal consequences of sin. I'm not saying that you should say,"You dirty, rotten sinner! You're going to Hell if you don't get right with God!". I was just wondering how you approach this.

    tfisher
     
    #6 tfisher, Nov 20, 2002
  7. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    I have to disagree with you for these reasons:

    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
    - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
    - Revelation 21:8

    "To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."
    - Titus 1:15-16
     
    #7 Rev. G, Nov 20, 2002
  8. Speedpass

    Speedpass Active Member
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    Great post, Joshua. But one thing still intrigues me: why do pastors who share your ideology rarely proclaim that from their pulpits? The majority of sermons I've heard from moderate pulpits deal more with how Christians can live and grow in God's grace rather than pointing those who don't claim Christ as their savior toward his salvation.
     
    #8 Speedpass, Nov 20, 2002
  9. rkbo

    rkbo New Member

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    That all sound good but I have a question.

    Do you believe that salvation is a free gift?
     
    #9 rkbo, Nov 20, 2002
  10. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    tfisher - just preached on Hell last week (because it was in the text). I do think eternal damnation is probably a more complex issue than "got a Jesus stamp - free pass; no Jesus stamp - burn eternally". Fortunately God sorts that out, not me.

    The possibility of eternal damnation is very real in Scripture (as is the reality that faith in Jesus exempts us from it) - so that's what I preach. I don't think the threat of Hell, however, connects with people nearly as personally as talking about the emptiness they feel without the presence of Christ; so I am much more likely to speak in the terms above.

    Rev. G. - OK. So perhaps I'm not as far on my spiritual journey as you. Perhaps the reverse is true. Perhaps one of us is more right than the other. We are still both born-again believers.

    Jimmy - I think they don't preach it for one of three reasons.

    1 - They don't believe it.
    2 - They really don't think about it that much because they're more concerned with other things.
    3 - They're afraid of sounding like fundamentalists.

    I don't know if you've read my preaching , but the gospel is there - and plainly stated. I'll try and get this Sunday's sermon up soon. It even talks about - :eek: - separation!

    Joshua

    [ November 21, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]
     
    #10 Rev. Joshua, Nov 20, 2002
  11. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"
    - James 2:19-20

    Salvation IS a free gift, but the reception of that gift brings about a transformation, a new way of living ("walking").

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
    - Ephesians 2:8-10
     
    #11 Rev. G, Nov 20, 2002
  12. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Romans 5:15
    But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man's trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many.
     
    #12 Rev. Joshua, Nov 20, 2002
  13. tfisher

    tfisher New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #13 tfisher, Nov 20, 2002
  14. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    Mr. Villines,

    I noticed that you did not present any supporting scripture for your statements. Would it be possible for you to repost this and to include several verses of Scripture supporting each point?
     
    #14 w_fortenberry, Nov 21, 2002
  15. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    #15 C.S. Murphy, Nov 22, 2002
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Conservative Christianity's Gospel centers on the person and work of Jesus Christ and man's responsibility toward God (repentance, faith, obedience to the Word).

    Result? Souls are born again.

    Liberal Christianity's Gospel centers on the individual, and man's responsibility toward fellow man (social works, philanthropy, ambivilence to the Word).

    Result? Habitat for Humanity and the Rainbow Coaltion.

    To me, that certainly is a "different" Gospel. But will let each person say for him/herself where they "fit" on the Conservative/Liberal line.
     
    #16 Dr. Bob, Nov 22, 2002
  17. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    wfortenberry, I really dislike prooftexting since I think it does a general disservice to the Bible. Nevertheless, since you asked for it.

    - We're all sinners. (Romans 3:9-12,23, 5:12)

    - Our sin keeps us from being in full relationship with God (Genesis 3:10). It keeps us from finding real peace (John 8:34), and from reaching the full potential of who we are capable of being (Genesis 3:24).

    - The good news is that God loves us completely and eternally (Romans 8:35-39). God loves us so much that God took the form of a human - Jesus - and died on a cross for our sins (Jonn 3:16). On the third day Jesus physically rose from the dead (I Cor 15:3-4).

    - That sacrifice, of God-in-the-flesh, atoned for our sins and reconciles us with God if we will open our hearts to it (Romans 5:10).

    - Opening our hearts means submitting to the authority of God as opposed to submitting to our sinful desires and the addictions of our weaknesses (Romans 6:12). Opening our hearts means recognizing our own imperfection and inability to acheive our own salvation (John 8:21). Opening our hearts means following the example of Christ (I John 3:23), and freely sharing with others the mercy and love we have received (Matthew 18:23-34). Opening our hearts means seeking the will of God through prayer (Luke 18:1-6), study (2 Tim 2:15), and fellowship with other believers (Acts 2:42). Opening our hearts means finding, in our emptiness, a place that can be filled by the holiness and beauty of God (I Peter 2:1-3).

    - The Holy Spirit works in the believer's life to transform them, through the sacrifice of Jesus, into a person who is not defined by the limitations of this world. (I John 3:23-24)

    ______

    These are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. If any of you want to add more that came to mind, feel free. I might want to use this again someday. [​IMG]

    Joshua
     
    #17 Rev. Joshua, Nov 22, 2002
  18. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Bob - In that case, I must be a conservative. (I am, in fact, regarded as such among many of my mainline colleagues.)

    C.S. - so you're point is simply that - because I disagree with you about the sinfulness of homosexuality, I have a flawed understanding of the nature of salvation and the need for the good news? Did the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention, who used the Bible to affirm slavery, have a flawed understanding of the gospel; or simply a poor application of biblical interpretation? Does full understanding of the gospel always lead to doctrinal uniformity?

    Joshua

    [ November 22, 2002, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]
     
    #18 Rev. Joshua, Nov 22, 2002
  19. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Hello Joshua,

    I have read your posts and some of your sermons. You are far from being a conservative Baptist. From what I can gather you teach that God the Father can also be called "our heavenly mother," abortion is acceptable, homosexuality is not a sin, and I think that you reject the inerrancy of the Bible.

    2000 years of Christian teaching stands in opposition to the doctrines that you teach. You know that the Word of God says that as a teacher of the Word you will be held accountable for what you teach and how you handle the things of God. I am asking you to seriously reconsider these issues. Your eternal happiness may well depend on it.

    [ November 22, 2002, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
    #19 Bible-boy, Nov 22, 2002
  20. rhoneycutt

    rhoneycutt New Member

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    CS,
    I think the thread you might be looking for is entitled A Liberal Hermeneutic or something to that effect. Why don't you do a search so that next time you feel the need to hijack a decent thread you will not have to drag the same old stuff out again and again. I doub't that there is anyone on the board who doesn't know Joshua's thoughts on homosexuality. There are plenty of threads to discuss this. I don't understand why every time Joshua posts on something ya'll feel the need to ambush him with the "gay" issue.
    By the way in my opinion it is conduct unbecoming a moderator.
    Russell
     
    #20 rhoneycutt, Nov 22, 2002
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