Difficulty between Numbers & Deuteronomy

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Bluefalcon, Feb 16, 2006.

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  1. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon
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    Num. 20:21 seems to be incompatible with Dt. 2:29. In Numbers, the Edomites did not give Israel passage, but in Deuteronomy it appears to be saying that they did. What is the best explanation of this apparent difficulty?
     
  2. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon
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    Another apparent difficulty is between Num. 13:1-2 and Dt. 1:22. In one passage God says to send spies into the land, and in the other passage the idea to send spies was the Israelites' own idea that "seemed good" to Moses and so he allowed them to carry it out. Maybe the idea was the peoples' (Dt.) which later God commanded Moses to go ahead and carry out (Num.)?
     
  3. Deacon

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    God may have a higher truth to teach us
    or you misunderstand what you are reading. :D

    Initially it appears the event timeline has been collapsed in Deuteronomy.

    Rob
     
  4. Eliyahu

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    I don't find Edomites allowed the passage for Israelites. Dt 1:22 is talking about the dispatch of the spies. You may be talking about Dt 23:7, but it never says Edomites allowed passage and therefore there is nothing contradictory each other.

    As for the dispatch of the spies, I noticed it before and my understanding was that
    - Dt 1:22 might have occurred earlier before Num 13 or
    - God knew the mind of Israelites already as Israelites were eager to know about the future instead of relying on God entirely.
    From my experience, human minds are like that, and do not want to follow God if the future looks too much scary, and therefore we are eager to know ahead of somethings, then after we know what the future looks like, we become more scary, which happened actually in my life even though I thought I was very much tough minded with the belief in the Lord.

    In any case, God was just and human beings are fragile.
     
  5. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon
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    Thanks for your nice reply. About the Edomites allowing the Israelites to pass through their land, Dt. 2:28-29 relates Moses' urging of the king of Heshbon, "Only let us pass through on foot -- as the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir, and the Moabites, who live in Ar, did for us -- until we cross the Jordan into the land the LORD our God is giving us." The problem is that in Numbers it's pretty clear that Edom came out against the Israelistes armed for war and did not let them pass through their land. Or is there a problem in the translation of the Dt. passage?
     
  6. Bluefalcon

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    So what is the lesson we should learn from the author's literary technique? In other words, why was the sending of spies by God's own command in Numbers, but the fault of the people in Deuteronomy?
     
  7. Eliyahu

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    Edomites never helped Israel throughout the history. Dt 1:22, Dt 2:29 do not say that they allowed Israelites the passage.

    Genesis 14:7 may be the exception to think about as the name of the geography, but it is generally understood that Amaelekites were one of the tribes of Edomites, as per Gen 36:12, 36:16.

    Exodus 17:16
    LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

    Haman was an Amalekite at the time of Esther. (Esther 3:1)
    King Herod is known to be an Edomite ( Idumaean) who married a daughter of the Haesmonaean dynasty.

    There is no contradiction in the bible, between Numbers and Deutronomy ( D'Varim)
     
  8. Bluefalcon

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    Thanks, Eliyahu, for your reply. Could you please post Dt. 2:28-29 using the translation of your preference. Appreciate it.
     
  9. Eliyahu

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    Sorry, now I can understand your agony!

    Dt 2:28-29
    It was addressed to Sihon, King of Hesbon ( I guess Amorites), not to the Edomites.

    Hebrew MT:
    28 Ochel bachesef tashvreni veakalti wumaim vachesef titen-li veshatiti rak evrah braglai 29
    ca-asher ashu-li bnei Esau haishbim beSeir veHa-Moabim Hishbim VeAr Ad Asher-AeAebor et-Ha Yardan El-HaArets Asher-Yehowa Eloheinu Noten Lanu.

    28 Thou shall let me buy food for money (silver)and give me Water for Silver, Only I will pass over on my feet. 29 As the children of Easu the residents in Seir and the Moabites the residents in Ar did to me until I pass over the Jordan unto the land which Jehovah our God gave unto us, and Sihon, King of Hesbon would not like our passage thru him because Jehovah your God hardened his spirit and made stubborn his heart so that he might deliver him into thy hands on this day.

    This is my own translation from Ben Chayyim Masorah which may differ from KJV:


    28 Thou shalt sell me meat for money, that I may eat; and give me water for money, that I may drink: only I will pass through on my feet; 29 (As the children of Esau which dwell in Seir, and the Moabites which dwell in Ar, did unto me;) until I shall pass over Jordan into the land which the LORD our God giveth us. 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.


    There is no bracket as it is a translators'addition for the easy understanding of the readers. The conjunction ve can be interpretted in many ways depending on the verses, on the translators. But in applying the conjunction Ve, KJV is more correct than my translation.

    I feel I have to think about this part. I am working on only Genesis now after finishing NT.
    Anyway thanks for your pointing out this issue as I learned somehow.
     
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