1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Discussion of the "Names" used to reference the "I am that I am"

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by T Alan, Dec 5, 2014.

  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In a Hebrew lesson for children that I had YHWH (the tetragrammaton) was said to be the concatenation of (" I was, I Am, I will be") and therefore literally "The Eternal One".

    HankD
     
  2. T Alan

    T Alan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    2
    I too have read that and also that Jehovah comes from YHWH as well.
     
  3. T Alan

    T Alan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    2
    Now Elder Constant, I need to know why the KJV (as you posted previously) would spell His name J e h o v a h 4 times but use the English translation "LORD" the other times. (This is, if, I'm tracking with you).
     
  4. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,384
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's the second listing ... you must overlooked it.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, Jehovah is the best guess of the tetragrammaton (YHWH) populated with Hebrew vowels (vowels are/were not included in the sacred text until the Masoretes included them - circa AD700?).

    HankD
     
  6. T Alan

    T Alan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thanks for the good info, consistent with most of my study. The problem now is that blessedwife318 has put forth that "J e h o v a h" only came about in the 12th century. Any info on that possibility as I await her to get back with the reference for her statement.
     
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is Elohim plural where as YHWH or Yahweh would be singular?

    Is God, Elohim, the living speaking Spirit the God whose name is YHWH.

    Did Spirit the God, Elohim, YHWN who in sundry times spoke the Word of God to the people by the prophets send his Son, Yahweh Saves, Jesus, born of woman to presently speak the Word that was with him from the beginning?

    Is, I Am, Jesus, the fulfillment of, I will become who I will become? Tell them, "I will become," has sent me unto you, Elohim to Moses?
     
  8. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,135
    Likes Received:
    117
    Angel of the Lord was in the burning bush....guess who he was?
     
  9. T Alan

    T Alan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yes.

    Was in the burning bush? or Was the burning within the bush? Or is there a difference?
     
  10. T Alan

    T Alan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    2
    I find that when you intentionally or unintentionally misspell, mispronounce, or misrepresent someones "name" they get offended. I would think that to be "under grace" as well.

    Another reason to thank Him for that Amazing Grace that put away our transgression and sin.:godisgood::jesus:
     
  11. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,557
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am very confused by some of these comments, please help me out?

    Elohim is plural-the im ending is plural and masculine ie, it is one of the indicators of "The Trinity" In Hebrew the verb determines whether the subject is singular or plural (it is just the opposite in English), thus Elohim (plural) bara' (singular for create) means that the one God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). If the subject determined the verb (as in English), it would be "In the beginning, the God's created ...) which is heresy and blasphemous since it would be polytheistic. As an aside, the word bara' is used only of God ie, ONLY GOD bara's (creates) something in scripture. One of the most used terms when man creates something is 'asah. Also, interestingly, bara' is the term that David used in Psalm 51:10 when he cries out "create in me a clean heart O God"; here, David understands that ONLY GOD can change his heart and make it clean.

    YHWN-did you mean YHWH?. This whole sentence is a bunch of fragments which confuses me (Remember, I am from Kentucky :tonofbricks:". I think that we agree if I understand you correctly.

    The "I AM" does not come from the Moses passage, but the Hebrew sentence structure more correlates to Isaiah Chapters 47-49 especially. These are the references that the people of Jesus' day would have more understood relating to the term.



    Grace and peace

    Bill

    Romans 5:1
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Elohim is plural:The Hebrew Scripture acknowledges that:

    Genesis 1
    26 And God (Elohim) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Verse 26 Elohim is plural.
    verse 27 Elohim is used along with a singular pronoun "in his own image"

    How can this be? - One explanation is that the one God (YHWH) is plural in number - the Holy Trinity

    Another verse. After the sin in the garden:

    Genesis 3
    22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    LORD God - the connective name of God puts YHWH and Elohim together

    YHWH-Elohim

    YHWH is the concatenation of (I was, I am, I will be) or the Eternal One.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHWH) our God (Elohim - Plural) is one LORD (YHWH):

    So God (YHWH-Elohim) is the Eternal Elohim or in our Trinitarian manner of speaking :

    God is three distinct persons in one divine essence.

    Some like to draw this analogy: Though a cluster of grapes contains mutiple grapes it is one cluster.


    HankD
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Many Hebrew scholars believe that the root meaning of "Yahweh" is formed from the present tense state of being verb. Thus by its very nature conveys the attributes of immutability because the state of being is never past or future but remains the same - "I AM"

    Furthermore, the compound names which have "Yahweh" in them as found in the excellent website provided by another poster can be understood as:

    I AM whatever the joining word means. I AM health, I AM righteousness, I AM etc. Thus WHATEVER YOU NEED the message is "I AM"

    This accounts for the seven "I am" found in the gospel of John. Jesus is clearly conveying the same message. I am the Yahweh of the Old Testament and I AM WHATEVER YOU NEED because "without me ye CAN DO NOTHING."
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Being I know, no Hebrew I was asking about plural/singular.
    Yes I meant, YHWH.

    I believe the I Am of John 8 would be more referenced to Ex 3:14.

    I don't think, "am," is even in those passages from Isaiah.
     
  15. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,557
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No axe to grind here

    Go back and look at those passages, the word LORD appears several times.

    Just trying to explain how the NT Jews understood what Jesus was saying here.

    Either accept it or not, it does not really matter to me.

    Just trying to be helpful here

    grace and peace

    Bill

    Romans 5:1
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist

    And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Ex 3:14 KJV

    From Adam Clark: As the original words literally signify, I will be what I will be, some have supposed that God simply designed to inform Moses, that what he had been to his fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he would be to him and the Israelites; and that he would perform the promises he had made to his fathers, by giving their descendants the promised land.


    Would you say, Ex. 3:14 which could be construed as future tense, is prophetic of Gal. 4:4 Resulting in Jesus of Nazareth speaking of himself as, "Before Abraham was, I Am," in John 8:58 in the Greek, in the present tense?

    Also consider.

    Ex 3:2,6,15 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    Matt. 22:31,32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am (vi Pres vxx 1 Sg) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am (vi Pres vxx 1 Sg) the resurrection, and the life: (Of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Even in the future tense the meaning would be the same. If he will be what he will be from the point of speaking, which is future, then again the idea is immutability, eternal and self-sufficiency are necessarily implied. Thus whatever you need "I SHALL BE" because of who I AM.

    However, "I shall be what I shall be" may be the futuristic present in the sense of asserted determination rather than something yet to occur in the future that is not presently existent.
     
  18. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,358
    Likes Received:
    445
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is some more information about why Jehovah is an incorrect name.

    The Jewish Encyclopedia: "Jehovah" -- a mispronunciation of the Hebrew YHWH the name of God. This pronunciation is grammatically impossible. The form 'Jehovah' is a philological impossibility."

    The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia: "JEHOVAH is an erroneous pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton a four lettered name of God, made up of the Hebrew letters Yod He Vav He. The word "JEHOVAH" therefore is a misreading for which there is no warrant and which makes no sense in Hebrew"


    Encyclopedia Britannica: ""The pronunciation 'Jehovah' is an error resulting among Christians from combining the consonants YHWH with the vowels of ADHONAY....The Masoretes who from the 6th to the 10th century worked to reproduce the original text of the Hebrew Bible replaced the vowels of the name YHWH with the vowel signs of Adonai or Elohim. Thus the artificial name Jehovah came into being."

    Nelson's Bible Dictionary: "Jehovah" -- "The divine name Yahweh is usually translated Lord in English versions of the Bible, because it became a practice in late Old Testament Judaism not to pronounce the sacred name YHWH, but to say instead "my Lord" (Adonai) - a practice still used today in the synagogue. When the vowels of Adonai were attached to the consonants YHWH in the medieval period, the word Jehovah resulted. Today, many Christians use the word Yahweh, the more original pronunciation, not hesitating to name the divine name since Jesus taught believers to speak in a familiar way to God."

    This all came from this Link
     
  19. T Alan

    T Alan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    2

    Interesting, but I don't see any serious issues with using "Jehovah", and after all that is what "Strongs" uses.

    Secondly, what is your "go to" "name" for Him when speaking of Him. As I've said earlier in this post, I just can't warm up to using "God" as it is, to me it seems, like "what" and not who He is. I mean he has told us his name. Yah. Proverbs 68:4 KJT "Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him."
     
  20. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,358
    Likes Received:
    445
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I usually pray starting with Lord.
     
Loading...