Disobedience?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Sherrie, May 9, 2003.

  1. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    Can a person who is saved, and their faith is strong, turn around and be so disobedient, and still find mercy and grace in God's eyes?

    What if loving God more than the disobedience is what makes them see their disobedience? Is there a chance?

    Sherrie
     
  2. Popeye

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    Any sin repented of will be forgiven, by His mercy and His grace. [​IMG]
     
  3. Me2

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    Do you see the family of God being called children of obedience and children of disobedience ?.

    both "positions" of attitude were foreordained to be within his family.

    vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. same two groups.

    the vessels of mercy (those living by grace) expressing mercy towards their brothers and sisters in christ..the vessels of Wrath. (those living by the flesh)

    of course you would have to believe in Once saved always saved for this idea to work.

    the disobedient children are always saved..
    their just being disobedient and not allowing God to renew their mind to be useful servants in his kingdom.

    we all become disobedient in our walk .

    both groups crave for the love of God. that keeps us constantly returning.

    difference between the two groups is not a dislike for God. Its how we reach out to find God.
    We either accept something freely from Christ.
    or we take it.. by force. we decide how to approach him.

    one obedient way..the other, disobedient.
    one knowing the way. the other lost their way.

    and to answer your question ? will they see their disobedience...not until they admit that their way is wrong. and are repentent concerning their disobedience. consider your time spent doing what your spirit is desiring. Just Giving yourself away.
    they are responsible for changing their mind.
    your just doing your thing. Loving them. Showing mercy and forgiveness.

    Me2
     
  4. Istherenotacause

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    Can I give you something from some one who has done some studying on the vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction?

    vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; they are said to be vessels, and so no longer considered in the clay, in the mass and heap of creatureship, but as creatures formed and made, and brought into being; and so to be used as instruments in God’s hands, to subserve his ends and purposes, and therefore called "vessels"; and not only so, but "vessels of wrath", fallen sinful creatures, and so deserving of the wrath of God, and objects of his vindictive justice, in whom he may righteously display his wrath and vengeance: hence they may be so called, being as vessels filled with his wrath; as such who are the instruments and executioners of his wrath are called, in # Isa 13:5, wmez ylk, "vessels of his wrath"; and in # Jer 50:25; where the Septuagint use the same phrase as here: and they are moreover said to be "fitted for destruction", as Haman is said to be by the Jews {o}; whom they affirm to be the same with Memucan, and ask why is his name called Memucan? and answer, twnerwpl Nkwmv, "because he was fitted for punishment": so these are said to be "fitted for destruction", that is, eternal damnation; not by God, for this does not respect God’s act of ordination to punishment; but by Satan, the god of this world, that blinds them, who works effectually in them, and leads them captive at his will; and by themselves, by their own wickedness, hardness of heart, and impenitence, do they treasure up to themselves wrath, against the day of wrath, so that their destruction is of themselves: a phrase somewhat like this is used in # Ps 31:12, where the Psalmist, under some dismal apprehensions of himself, says, that he was like dba ylk, "a perishing vessel", or "a vessel of perdition"; the Septuagint render it, skeuov apolwlov, "a lost vessel". Now what is the method of the divine conduct towards such persons? he

    endures [them] with much longsuffering; as he did the old world, before he destroyed it; and as he did Pharaoh, before he cut him off: God not only supports such persons in their beings, amidst all their impieties and iniquities, but follows and fills them with his providential goodness, insomuch that many of them have more than heart can wish; nay, to many he affords the outward means of grace, which they slight and despise; externally calls them, but they refuse, loving darkness rather than light, and therefore are inexcusable: now if after all this patience, indulgence, and forbearance, when he could in justice have sent them to hell long ago, he is "willing to show his wrath"; his displicency at sin and sinners, his vindictive justice, his righteous vengeance.

    A vessel fitted for destruction has no ability to repent due to their choice of rejecting the space of repentence allowed by the LORD.

    Many will disagree, that Judas Iscariot and Pharoah as well, had no chance of repentence, but that would make God unjust. Reproof, rebuke, and exhortation, have there intentions of working repentence as described in:

    II Corinthians 7: 8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
    9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. {after…: or, according to God}
    10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
    11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
    12 Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.
    13 Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.


    Me2, Can I ask you where you get your ideas from? Are you really a Baptist?
     
  5. Me2

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    Been a ifb for 10 years and then a sbc for 15.

    Got my info from the same bible you read.
    I guess you dont see what I see.

    If I were to simply quote scripture. the spiritual message could be hidden to you, or your eyes and ears could be closed. either way the message is there.Im hoping people who read these posts have read their bibles many times over.

    try thinking resurrection.

    the just and the unjust. same two groups
    obedient and disobedient.

    jews and gentiles. Jews representing those who live by the flesh and gentiles representing those who live by grace.

    many passages refer to these two groups: to the jews first and then the gentiles.
    a simple gospel message of offering the continual mercy of God to the vessels of wrath first, the
    jews, and then the vessels of mercy..the gentiles..

    looking deeper. its a message to his own children.
    first to the disobedient and then to the obedient.

    notice that the NT doesnt speak specifically of people outside Gods family...ie "the world"
    its a very specific grouping of messages to a specific group of HIS children.

    what Im hearing on this board is that many dont think that:

    a. the bible is a sealed book.
    b. that the reader needs the holy spirit to interpret.
    c. that any knowledge of God is 2 parts. not wisdom only, but actually seeing and hearing within the context of their own life making the wisdom real..ie they know. not they "know about".
    d. that God lays before his children very strict parameters of living. in order to communicate with the holy spirit. we MUST BE ABIDING within the constictions he places on each of us.
    e. that anyone calling themselves a christian must have their eyes and ears opened by God himself.
    f. that knowledge of God and the process of sanctification is a progressive activity inwhich each christian follows the same guidelines and same educational progression. each idea and concept follows a specific pattern to be learned and understood. one step at a time.

    many possibilities exist of holding back ones knowledge when a believer will hold onto tightly a doctrine that isnt correct. this particular one referring to disobedient children has within it the notion of "hell" as their reward.. that causes confusion.

    [​IMG]
    Me2
     
  6. Sherrie

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    While I hope that too, there are those who just read these post, and not their bible all the time. Some are new christians, and some are not Christians. That is why I posted this. Privately someone pm'd me and asked me this question. Rather than me say something that might be misleading, or incorrect, I left it up to the people on the board. So sometimes being simple is better than long Gibber-Jabber. Sometimes people long post can be confusing.

    So with that thought....and witnessing to a new Christian, or one on their way to being one;

    Sherrie

    [ May 09, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]
     
  7. Wisdom Seeker

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    I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Luke 15:7

    It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. Lam. 3:22

    The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou will not despise. Psalm 51:17

    The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate. Psalm 34:22

    Yes, of course they can, God's mercy and grace are limitless. Loving God more than the disobedience often makes it very clear to a believer that repentance of the disobedience is needed to restore the relationship with Him. God the Father loves his children, and will show grace and mercy towards the believer and give the strength to deal with the sins of disobedience if we repent of them with an open and contrite heart.

    In Christ,
    Laurenda ;)
     
  8. Johnv

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    Can a person who is saved, and their faith is strong, turn around and be so disobedient, and still find mercy and grace in God's eyes?

    Like the Prodigal Son? Of course?
     
  9. Me2

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    the gentle tug of ones heart is enough to know that God is there.
    just saying "im sorry" is sufficient.

    that is the key of abiding in the Spirit:
    Loving God, more than the disobedience

    if one recognizes that disobedience exists. the Holy Spirit within them is working. He's identifying. and asking the believer to trust God and ask Him that the problem be resolved

    simply demanding ones self to quit is an act of the flesh. the proper answer is to recognize that pleasing God is the nature of their new spirit. and that the power resides within the Holy Spirit to stop the disobedience.
    present the problem before God and ask that he stop the disobedience. and have faith that he will answer your prayer.

    Sometimes God's Jabberwocky
    [​IMG] Me2
     
  10. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    Cute!

    Sherrie
     
  11. Istherenotacause

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    While I hope that too, there are those who just read these post, and not their bible all the time. Some are new christians, and some are not Christians. That is why I posted this. Privately someone pm'd me and asked me this question. Rather than me say something that might be misleading, or incorrect, I left it up to the people on the board. So sometimes being simple is better than long Gibber-Jabber. Sometimes people long post can be confusing.

    So with that thought....and witnessing to a new Christian, or one on their way to being one;

    Sherrie
    </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not confused by people who know what they're talking about, no matter how long a post.

    I don't mind a good application of scripture but the interpetation shouldn't be messed with as the result. If you were looking for the simple answer to your question, the answer is YES! A disobedient child can find consolation and forgiveness for admission of disobedience and the turning from the error that led them astray. IOW, a person CAN get right with God.

    "A soft answer turneth away wrath"
     
  12. Istherenotacause

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    Maybe a good comparative study of the similarities of Romans 9 and Ephesians 2 along with what you're posting will help. Hell is never a reward,just for clarities sake, none of us were of God's family before we got saved, we all were disobedient children. Also Israel, the seed of Abraham, of the flesh are God's chosen people, not His family until born again.

    I don't mean to deviate from the original thought of the thread and will start a new one regarding this subject. [​IMG]
     
  13. KeeperOfMyHome

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    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

    When God saved us, He gave us everlasting life:
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) . . .

    . . .as well as forgiving us for ALL sin . . .

    And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)

    And besides all that, all those that are alive in Christ are dead to sin:

    For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)

    But the one most important fact remains: God deals with the saved as a father dealeth with his sons (Hebrews 12):

    If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (Hebrews 12:7)

    So, yes, there is mercy and grace for God's disobedient children.

    Julia
     
  14. Wisdom Seeker

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    God in the form of Jesus Christ died to pay for all sins, past, present and future. When a person accepts the gift of his sacrifice to save them from eternal seperation from God, that person is forgiven completely for their past, their present and their future. You can't lose your salavation, you can however lose the closeness you have with God when you are living within His will. Therefore, a person can of course sin after salvation, they can even sin when they feel they are doing all the right things, and God being God can and will forgive a person of this disobedience...if they are humble enough to ask Him to.
     
  15. Istherenotacause

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    Uh, when did God die?
     
  16. Major B

    Major B
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    Just to lighten things up a bit, and using the segue principle to "Jabberwocky," I once regaled one of my high school classes by reciting "Jabberwocky" as a pentecostal Televangelist might do it. (It makes as much sense as most of what those birds say.) Try it, it's a hoot.

    (Twas brillig and the sliiiiiiithy toves, I say, (HUH!) THEM TOVES WAS SLIIITHY, AND THE DEVIL MADE UM THAT WAY, (YAY-YAS!)(HUH!) etc.
     
  17. christine

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    Sherry, can I interrupt real quick. I know this is off the subject, but It's something I am afraid to ask anyone I know.
    What does the bible mean when it refers to being circumcised or uncircumsised? I do have a hard time understanding the bible sometimes, and this is one of those things. Is it used to diferentiate races or religions, or is it figurative? I know it's probably a dumb question, that's why I'm asking it to people I don't know.
    Thanks,
    Christine
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Christine - circumcision is a surgical procedure that God commanded to Abraham as a "sign" of God's special covenant with them. It was very real, involved cutting excess skin off of the male reproductive organ. Jews still perform this on the 8th day after a baby boy is born.

    This is done for hygenic reasons in many Western nations, with no regard for any religious covenant.

    The idea of circumcision is also used as a figure (metaphor) - cutting away the foreskin of our hearts = getting rid of the excess things that take our hearts away from the special covenant relationship with God.
     
  19. Sherrie

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    Thank you Dr. Bob for answering that question for Christine in such as manner as you did. I was not sure I knew how, I was going to answer her. (nothing against you Christne)

    Christine if you still do not understand, feel free to pm me. I would be happy through pm to talk to you about this and anything else.

    God Bless
    Sherrie
     
  20. Wisdom Seeker

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    God in the form of Jesus Christ died at calvary for our sins. Do I have to say that he rose again in 3 days, that he preexited the world, that he had no beginning and no end...or were you just busting my chops? :rolleyes: Good grief! [​IMG]
     

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