Dispensational error pt3......or...is it truth?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Iconoclast

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    In our last episode it went like this;

    Iconoclast said:
    JOJ replied
    The language of Hosea is not quoted in the NT.????:Cautious

    Here we go.....[note] in the KJV....Osee= Hosea
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    After the cross the Holy Spirit has Paul explain that gentiles in the New Covenant church are "now the people of God."

    The very language of the New Covenant from Jeremiah 31;
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    When Jer.31 speaks of the new covenant he says one of the main features is...."and will be their God, and they shall be my people"


    So when Paul tells us that gentiles are now the people of God right alongside the elect remnant of Jews quoting Hosea......I say that locks it up:Wink

    What do you say dispensational brothers?
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    A dispensational writer offered this; in pt2....it was never answered except by Hank and TC...anyone care to defend this position?
    3 questions should equal at least 3 answers....ignoring this will not make it disappear like it was raptured out;)
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    This was not answered;


    {11E.g., Keith A. Mathison, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1999), pp. 89–90. Mathison states: “The new covenant was inaugurated by Jesus Christ at His first coming and is being fulfilled in and through the church during this present age…. The institution of the new covenant does not await the start of the Millennium or the eternal state. Since the new covenant is the means by which God will finally and completely fulfill all previous covenant promises, and since the new covenant is specifically the covenant of the present age, these promises must be fulfilled in the present age” (p. 90).]
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    JOJ said;
    Here Keith Mathison answers this objection;

    From His book Dispensationalism Rightly dividing the People of God?
    The promises made to literal physical Israelites were fulfilled by a literal physical Israelite, Jesus the Messiah.
    He is the seed of Abraham.

    What dispensationalists fail to grasp is that through unionwith Christ.all who are His by faith have become members of His Body.
    Therefore all who are in Him by faith, Whether Old testament believers or new testament believers. are coheirs of the promises and covenants.

    The Covenantal promises do not require a future fulfillment by national Israel in order for God's word to be true.

    The promises were typologically fulfilled by national Israel in the OT.[josh21:43-45]

    They are now being fulfilled by the true Seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ Gal 3:16
    And they are being fulfilled in and by all who are united to Christ by faith.[vs.29]

    The Church through Union with Him, shares in these promises.
     
  5. John of Japan

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    As I recall (and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong), I was referring to the "sands of the sea" statement in Hosea, which was a direct quote from the Abrahamic covenant and not referring to the New Covenant. While the specific passage is referred to in the NT in Romans as you have proven, that is a moot point to me.

    Further, since I am extremely busy right now, and because on the other thread I said several times that the new covenant is not a big deal in dispensationalism and that DT scholars differ on it, your new thread doesn't really interest me, even though you have aimed it at me.

    Enjoy the discussion.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Well I understand.....you do not have time to respond.
    I noticed you did not have time to respond much in the first two threads either.
    You evaded answering the 3 questions, you avoided the identification of the sport post where all the elements of the sport were there, just not the name of the sport.

    Being under time pressure can cause many things for sure.

    Another thing that cause a lack of response might be when someone denies the Covenant of Redemption exists, or that the New Covenant exists now.

    This could limit a persons response also.

    I do not mind a link from Hosea about the sand of the sea and you link it to the Abrahamic covenant....even though Hosea did not say it was as you say"a direct quote"

    You can imagine my surprise when you dismiss Paul and Peter quoting from Hosea and you suggesting it was a "moot" point:Cautious.....then when I link Hosea to the promise of the New Covenant language ; you evade it also.....
    I will post it again in case you did not see it.........just like your attempted link to the sand and the sea.....I link to"I will be their God and they shall be my people"
    Here we go.....[note] in the KJV....Osee= Hosea
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    After the cross the Holy Spirit has Paul explain that gentiles in the New Covenant church are "now the people of God."
    The very language of the New Covenant from Jeremiah 31;
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    When Jer.31 speaks of the new covenant he says one of the main features is...."and will be their God, and they shall be my people"

    I know you are very busy....so maybe some of your premill brothers will join in....
    Hank alone has been trying to discuss this .



     
  7. Iconoclast

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    JoJ
    I was not aiming at you, but trying to respond to the unanswered portions and seeking to get those questions answered.....but maybe that will happen at a future time.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    I can remember how I looked forward to hearing sermons from dispensational pastors.
    The system sought to deal with the whole bible and it does.
    It was helpful in several ways. By the time I came to learn the defects I was ready to move ahead.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    A random person might say......if the system deals with the whole bible, why would you not continue to hold to that system?
    Good question.....
    After awhile you come to understand that others in church history also dealt with the whole bible. They have done so in a more unified way that does not fragment the bible , but rather it starts with God's eternal purpose being revealed to the Church.
    It starts where the bible starts.....with the revelation of God being a Covenant making and Covenant keeping God. It does not reveal made up dispensations where a task is given, man fails, and then a new task is given then man fails again, etc.

    Instead it reveals God's love before time for a multitude of sinners to be saved by the Covenant death of the Son.

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

    13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

    14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

    17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

    18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

    19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

    21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

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  11. Iconoclast

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  12. John of Japan

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  13. Iconoclast

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    That is okay John. No one gains anything looking to jump on your words.....your point was that there are not an over abundance of the references.
    Why some of us see it as significant is the few references are in key places and as we look more through a Covenant lens, naturally it will become a point of contention.
    We are not in a rush here as there is much to reread on this issue.
    One thing is certain we have the victory in Jesus as Lord of all....right now and on into eternity.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

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    That's OK. I didn't see your posts in the previous thread. I wasn't trying to jump down your throat, only to say that the term 'New Covenant' is more common than you seemed to be suggesting.

    In fact I failed to notice Hebrews 9:15 and 10:16 :oops:, and the context of Romans 11:27 really demands that it is speaking of the New Covenant.
     
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  15. Iconoclast

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    In Things to Come by J.Dwight Pentecost there is a 12 page section on the new covenant...
    After offering 3 views of the new covenant that of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.....this statement was made;pg124
    Regardless of the relationship of the church to the new covenant as explained in these three views,there is one general point of agreement: the new covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 must and can be fulfilled only by the nation Israel and not by the church.

    These views are in contrast to God's revealed purpose in Eph 3.
     
    #15 Iconoclast, Oct 7, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  16. Iconoclast

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    On pg 90 and 91 Ryrie tries unsucessfully to explain mt 21:43;
    okay so far.... he introduces the term "the generation"....now watch as he invents this story;

    this false idea allows for a long gap or parenthesis to be inserted where there is in reality no gap.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    From Findley Edge.....the greening of the church,pg36

    In effect Jesus said to Israel,for more than a thousand years you have had your chance.God said,go work in my vineyard.
    Be a kingdom of priests.
    You said you would do it,but you failed.
    Therefore the kingdom is taken from you and given to a people who will bring forth fruit-that is, who will fulfill the purpose of their calling......

    Dispensationalism ignores this reality as they look to escape the task but rather look to be rescued.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    All christians are under the New Covenant relationship with God now, as that is PNLY one that gives to us salvation and the Holy Spirit, but church is only under its spiritual provisions, as Israel still has physical blessings yet to come to her under it, when jesus is accepted as their Messiah...

    Both israel and church will be in the new jerusalem, so both share eternal state, just divided between heaven/earth during time of Millinium
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Okay.....you are getting closer to an answer....
    If a saved Israelite is living now.....he only has spiritual promises?
    Since God has made one new man in Christ. ....why do you split God's people into two? Earthly/heavenly?
    In Hebrews 11...why does it say that ot saints desired a heavenly country if an earthly millenium was in view? Heb 11:13-16
     
    #19 Iconoclast, Oct 10, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  20. Iconoclast

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    Y1,

    ,
    Chafer.....this statement was made;pg124
    Regardless of the relationship of the church to the new covenant as explained in these three views, there is one general point of agreement:
    the new covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 must and can be fulfilled only by the nation Israel and not by the church.

    ,

    you say this......but can you show anywhere in scripture that teaches this idea?

    ,

    does scripture say this?
     
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