Dispensational interpretation of the "eye of the needle" Rich Man

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jope, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Jope

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    Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
    Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
    Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
    Mark 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
    Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
    Mark 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
    Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
    Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
    Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Mark 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
    Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
    Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
    Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
    Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
    Mark 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

    The above is not for Christ's body the Church, as 1 Tim. 6:17 shows us that it is possible for a man in this present dispensation to be rich, and there being nothing wrong with it.

    The Dispensational interpretation, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, as the elect Jews in the tribulation period [which dispensation Christ spake this to, and this same dispensation will be resumed after the present dispensation ends], will not be able to buy or sell [Rev. 13:16-17]. They will have to forsake very much to enter the Kingdom of God [Lk. 17:26-37]. It is told to them to depart out of Jerusalem when the abomination of desolation happens [Mt. 24:15-18]. They will have to leave their possessions [Mt. 24:17-18]. They are not going to be able to trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God. Thankfully, Christ told them something to do though to prepare for the tribulation.

    Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
    Luke 16:2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
    Luke 16:3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
    Luke 16:4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
    Luke 16:5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
    Luke 16:6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
    Luke 16:7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
    Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
    Luke 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
    Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
    Luke 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
    Luke 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
    Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
    Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    We see that some of the Gentiles will help Israel out [Rev. 12:16, Mt. 25:31-46].

    "I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren [The Jews - Rom. 9:4-5], ye have done it unto me." [Mt. 25:35-40]​

    We see as well, that after the tribulation, the elect Jews will be spoiling those who spoiled them.
    [Isaiah 14:2, 60:14, Jer. 30:16]
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    Welcome to the forum Jope. I would like to challenge your thinking on these scriptures. The first passage you quote has two distinct parts. The first part is a literal historical event that occured in the life of Christ and has to do with a LOST MAN who is seeking eternal life while the second aspect as to do with DISCIPLES and their future rewards in heaven. The two should not be confused with each other.

    The second passage is not a literal historicl event but a parable that has to do with trusting riches rathe than trusting God and its etenal conseqences.

    The third passage you bring into this mix is the conclusion of the Olivet Discourse that follows a series of parables.

    I respectfully submit to you that the analogy of the impossibility of the camel going through the eye of a needle has absolutely nothing to do with dispensationalism or dispensations or any of the other passages you bring into this mix but is the practical application of Christ in correctly diagnosing the problem that prevented the rich young ruler from selling all he had and following Christ.

    The story of the Rich young ruler is quite simple once you grasp it. This young man is a rich man and he is simply seeking a certain valuable he wants to add to his deposit of riches - eternal life.

    Note his approach to Christ and his statement. He acknowledges that Christ is "good" (Gr. agathos - intrinsic goodness by nature) and presents himself as EQUALLY "good" (Gr. agathos - intrinsic goodness by nature) in that he believes he is capable of doing sufficiently "good" enough to obtain eternal life.

    Note his precise question "What GOOD thing must I DO to inherit eternal life." He is asserting that he is capable of doing suffciently good enough works to merit eternal life.

    Now, take note of Christ's immediate response - "Why callest thou me good"
    Jesus takes note of how he uses the term "good" equally of Christ and himself thus placing Himself EQUAL to Christ in regard to inherent goodness. Thus Christ immediately denies that anyone is EQUALLY Good as God, because that is precisely who Christ is - God. - "There is NONE GOOD but ONE and that IS GOD."

    However, this RICH young man does not believe that. He is not only rich in material wealth but he actually believes he is RICH in moral wealth - Inherently morally as Good as God. Meaning, he does not see himself as a sinner.

    Jesus understands and sees this fallacy in his self-perspective as sinless and so he points him to the Law as the Standard of righteousness and what must be done to be as righteous as God. Why did God give the law? Paul tells us that God gave it, added it to educate us in regard to sin and to show that we are sinners and have come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:20,23).

    Now take note of the Rich man's response. He claims to be sinless from his youth up. He claims he has kept all the law from his youth up. Remember, James says that if we fail in but "one point" of this same law (James 2:10-11) that Jesus quotes we violate every point and come under its condemnation whch is death, not its commendation which is justificaiton of life. However, this young man sees himself RICH in sinless perfection in regard to the demands of God's Law.

    Now note Jesus response - "if thou wilt be PERFECT"! Jesus does not agree he is perfect. Because Jesus had already said, "THERE IS NONE GOOD, but One and that is God." However, this rich man has made the claim that he is inherently as good as Christ and has doubled down and claimed he has kept all the law. However, Christ puts the ultimate test to his claim to show him that he is not inherently good as he thinks and that he has never kept the law as he thinks. Jesus tells him to go sell all that he has and give it to the poor. This would demonstrate obedience to the second tablet of the ten commanments which Christ summarizes as to love your neighbor as yourself. This would also force him to complete faith and dependency upon God alone for sustaneance since he has sold everything he has. Here is the test of what the young man perceived as his real RICHES. To disobey this command was to prove he is a sinner as he broke a direct command.

    Second, he is told to come and follow Christ. This would be a practical demonstration of obedience to the first tablet in the ten commandments. Jesus summed up the first five commandments thus, "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy mind and all thy soul and all thy strength..."

    By refusing to do this, he not only failed the practical test of obedience to the ten commandments but demonstrated where his true RICHES really were - not the love of God, not the love of man but the love of HIMSELF.

    This is the kind of RICH man that Jesus says cannot enter the kingdom of God. The only kind of person who can enter the kingdom of God is one who comes to the end of himself - crucify himself, self-denial and finds his complete riches in Christ. This is what the analogy of the camel going through the eye of the needle is all about. It is IMPOSSIBLE that this kind of RICH man - a man RICH in self-esteem - to be saved as salvation requires complete self-denial. Those who enter the kingdom must be "poor in spirit" but this young man is RICH in spirit. To be able to turn on yourself and deny yourself and crucify yourself is IMPOSSIBLE with men, as that is something only the Grace of God can accomplish as no man will deny themselves apart from God's grace.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Aug 16, 2012
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  3. Moriah

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    Are you kidding? God chose those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith. This is not about total depravity.
    The rich man did not want to give up his riches. The poor in this world already have nothing.

    1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

    The wise of the world thought they knew better than God did. The strong of the world were too proud to humble themselves; the weak are ready to humble themselves.
    You miss the Truth because you only see what Calvinists and the like have taught you.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    All you can do is scoff but you will never directly deal with the text of scripture in any kind of scholarly way because YOU CAN'T. So you huff and you puff but you will ignore the precise contextual data, the contextal facts because YOU CAN'T deal with them and you NEVER do and you NEVER will because they expose your ignorance and incompetence. You will ignore the textual data, jump to another context and then pit it against the facts of this context. That is your cultic method of interpretation.

    For example, you cannot deny that the rich ruler used the term "good" twice and once toward Christ and once to desribe his own perceived ability. You cannot deny that Christ emphasized the term "good" in his immediate response first with a question and then followed by a UNIVERSAL denial and the words "THERE IS NONE but ONE" is a universal denial of ALL but "ONE" and "ONE" is a precise limited exception to this rule. Instead, you blantanly change Christ's words to mean "JUST SOME are not good" rather than "THERE IS NONE GOOD." This is precisely what Paul said in Romans 3:9-11 in three different ways with these words which destroy your false interpetation - "NO, NOT ONE" speaking of both gentiles and Jews (v. 9) and "ALL THE WORLD" and "EVERY MOUTH" and "NO FLESH" (vv. 18-19). These words make your interpretation absolutely foolish and incompetent as your interpetation requires these words to mean "Not all, just some" "Some of the world" "many mouths" and "some flesh." You directly do exactly what Satan did in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3 when he said, "The Lord hath not said" when in fact the Lord did say and that is precisely the serpentile interpretation you apply to these words of God.
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Aug 16, 2012
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  5. Jope

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    I should have added this in at the end, as this last point may seem out of place.

    We see, therefore, that the elect Jews will indeed "receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life" [verse 30 of the passage I quoted {Mark 10}]
    ...In the Millennial Kingdom [Deut. 30:1-8, Rev 20:1-6].
     
  6. Moriah

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    Why do you single this scripture out just for the elect Jews?
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    My friend, eternal life is NEVER obtained by keeping the law as the law was never given to obtain eternal life precisely because the law can never reward eternal life to sinners and all are sinners - it can only condemn.

    The same gospel preached after the cross is the same gospel preached before the cross"

    Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

    Look at the preceding context to identify "them" - those under Moses.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Look at the preceding context and you will see the antecedant for "him" is Christ (the Old Testament name meaning "The annointed one").

    The Jewish leadership had perverted the gospel during the days of Jesus Christ and what they did preach made their converts a two-fold more child of hell because they preached that sinners could be justified by the Law and obtain eternal life.

    With John the Baptist the gospel which all the prophets preached began to be preached anew (Jn. 3:36). The gospel of the kingdom is simply the good news about how to enter the SPIRITUAL kingdom of God now and his millennial and eternal kingdom to come. Paul continued to preach the gospel of the kingdom throughout the book of Acts. Speaking to the GENTILE congregation at Ephesus he said:

    Ac 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

    The gospel of the kingdom is the good news about the KING and submission to him through repentance and faith (Jn. 3:16; 36).

    The sacrifices never literaly took away sins (heb. 11:4) but were merely a "shadow" which is a FORM empty of substance as the substance of literal salvation was found by faith in what the FORM proclaimed - the gospel of Christ as Savior - Acts 10:43
     
  8. Moriah

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    There was nothing wrong with being rich then or now. There was nothing wrong with being rich, except if you put your riches before God.
    Jesus was on earth, and the rich man did not want to give up his riches to follow God, God in the flesh on earth.
    Jesus knew the rich man’s heart and that he put his riches above God.
    That lesson goes for anytime, for Jew or Gentile, and it is not about being a Jew.
    Again, there is nothing wrong with having money, it is wrong though to put money before God in your heart.
    Jews in the tribulation you say, why would these Jews need to be taught a lesson about money if they are saved, they should already understand that one must not depend on money but depend on God.
    How do you get from those scriptures that it is about Gentiles helping Israel out? How do you separate saved Jews from saved Gentiles?
    Are the Jews you speak of believing Jews? Why are you speaking as believing Jews will need help and not believing Gentiles?
     
  9. Jope

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    Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Mt. 15:24].
    Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers [Rom. 15:8].
    Romans 9:4-5 says:

    Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Christ taught a very great deal of content to the Jews and not to the church, His Body. Though there are times when he does speak about His Body the Church [Jn. 14:1-3, Matthew 18:17 for example].

    The church, Christ's body wasn't even built yet during Christ's days in the flesh.
    Matthew 16:18 says that the Church was a future thing to be built.

    Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
     
  10. Moriah

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    The same gospel of believe and obey was preached before and after the cross!

    However, the mystery of the gospel of Jesus Christ was that, a mystery.

    Ephesians 3:3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

    Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

    Ephesians 3:9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

    Ephesians 3:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,

    Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

    Colossians 1:27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    Colossians 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,

    Colossians 4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

    Matthew 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

    1 Corinthians 4:1 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.

    Stop teaching falseness.
     
  11. Jope

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    The rich Jews in the tribulation shall hardly enter into the kingdom of God [Mk. 10:23], as those Jews that don't receive the mark on their hand or in their forehead will not be able to buy or sell [Rev. 13:16-17].
     
  12. Jope

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    ...And so the elect Jews [144 000] will be pretty poor...seeing as they will have to forsake their possessions in the Tribulation, and they won't be able to buy or sell.

    That's where the Gentiles come in though [Matthew 25:31-46].
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    So you actualy believe in a gospel of works in the tribulation in order for them to obtain eternal life??? They must get rid of their riches in order to enter the kingdom???? Do I understand you correctly?
     
  14. Moriah

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    Jesus was sent FIRST to the lost sheep of Israel. When Jesus was lifted up, all men could come to him.
    Everything Jesus said to the Israelites, it goes for the Gentiles. Jesus just spoke to the Jews first. The Jews who belonged to God before Jesus came; even they now had to go through Jesus to keep with God.
    Jew and Gentile must go through Jesus to be with God.

    Even the Jews who belonged to God before Jesus’ ministry on earth, God gave them to Jesus, they were His, but now they had to go through Jesus.

    The righteous Jews of the Old Testament who died before Jesus came to earth; even they were made perfect through faith in Jesus, when the gospel of Jesus was preached they heard it in the spirit, their spirit.

    I just do not see how you can separate Jews from Gentiles.

    Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

    Did you read that? Jesus created IN HIMSELF ONE NEW MAN OUT OF THE TWO, the two being Jews and Gentiles.

    We are part of Jesus’ body literally.

    Again, I do not see how you can separate Jews from Gentiles.
     
  15. Jope

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    According to Revelation 14:11 & 20:4, everyone who "receiveth the mark" is not saved... and those who do not receive the mark [the elect] cannot buy or sell [Rev. 13:16-17], neither can the elect turn back to their possessions at the abomination of desolation event [Mt. 24:15-18].
     
  16. Jope

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    The OT scriptures were written for The Church, Christ's body's learning [Rom. 15:4].
    We can also learn much from the gospels, even when the content that we read is not addressed to the Church, Christ's body.
    For example, even though the church is not under the law of Moses [Rom. 6:14-15], Christ's teaching of reconciliation though it includes an altar gift [Mt. 5:21-26] is still "...profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" [2 Tim 3:16].
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Lost people will take the mark of the beast but that does not mean salvation is conditioned upon the mark. Think this through! Are you saying that tribulation mankind has a different problem to be saved from other than "sin" and there is a different kind of savior, salvation and gospel in the tribulation period?
     
  18. Jope

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    The "new man" of Eph. 2:15 is speaking about the Church, Christ's body.

    However, when the Church, Christ's body is raptured pre-trib, Jews and Gentiles will be separate on earth during the tribulation period.

    "Separate" in that the Gentiles are not of Abraham's seed.
    However, in Isaiah 56:6-8 we read that the Gentiles will partake of the gathering of the elect event [Mt. 24:29-31, Gen. 49:10].
     
  19. Jope

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    Revelation 14:11 doesn't sound like salvation to me.

    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
     
  20. Moriah

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    I am just not sure I understand what you are saying.

    Those who do not believe in Jesus are not saved. The Jews who were alive at Jesus’ time on earth, they were cut off for not having faith in Jesus.
    So then, since the Jews were cut off, what makes you think their descendents are not also cut off if they do not believe in Jesus?
     

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