1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured dispensational/reformed

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by agedman, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My alma mater - Calvary Bible College and Theological Seminary is/was a "dyed in the wool" dispensational institution (at least when I attended).

    The official Systematic Theology was Lewis Sperry Chafer seven volume set (I still have mine).

    Someone there (professor or visiting speaker - don't remember) said "any Christian who can eat a ham sandwich with a clear conscience is a dispensationalist" (you know - ham - its pig meat).

    Deuteronomy 14:8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.​

    One of the core tenents of any dispensational body of belief is the sharp distinction they make between Israel and the church, that is why the speaker (or prof) said what he did about the Christian who eats a ham sandwich because they are making a practical distinction between Israel and the church.

    Everytime a person (Christian or otherwise) eats a BLT or a pork chop they are breaking one of the 613 commandments in the Law.

    Some folks like to divide up the law (ceremonial, moral, etc) and that is a structural convenience for explaining the different components of the law but it is not strictly scriptural.

    Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.​

    If one point of the law is broken the whole law is broken and the curse falls on the person.

    This is curse of sin and death that Jesus took upon Himself for us.

    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:​


    HankD
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    I am definitely not a dispensationalist and though I believe in the Doctrines of Grace do not consider myself reformed. I have no real problem with 6 of the seven statements above {I notice you don't call them dispensations.} but Satan was bound by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and we are currently in the so-called millennial reign {Statement #5}.

    I equate the term "reformed" with Protestantism. Being a Baptist I do not consider myself in any way a Protestant. The following comments by Charles H. Spurgeon show the historic position of Baptists regarding their relationship to Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.

    "We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians.* We did not commence our existence at the Reformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents.* Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor; I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man.* We have ever been ready to suffer; as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, the despot over the consciences of men." Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, [London: Passmore & Alabaster, 1861], Volume 7, Page 225.​
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,436
    Likes Received:
    1,574
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Amen & thank you
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,136
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Baptist
    neither the decalogue nor the written law was given by God to serve as a "determining point" for humankind. These were for God's people and them only (Romans 15:4, 1 Cor. 10:12). These were how they were to be held accountable to their God, and to each other. If God intended these for humankind, as opposed to specific and peculiar men who are part of humankind, He would have ordered Moses to go to the other non-Hebrew tribes around Israel, and beyond, and give them these written and spoken laws as well.

    well, what I believe is, that time when the law served as 'school master' pointing to Christ ended at the cross, and the teaching of 'why and how' the law served as schoolmaster commenced then. maybe some will call it semantics, but I don't think so. and again, I take exception to Christ providing payment for all sins of humankind,

    It IS the millenial kingdom now.

    You might want to take another look at the verses in Revelation, KJV, which pertain to the Book of Life, particularly Rev. 20. I don't think the Great White Throne involves God's people.
    From what I read, the GWT involves only those whose names are NOT in the Book of Life.
     
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would agree but in part.

    I do not agree that the 10 were given "for God's people and them only." Or God would not have "books of deeds" (my words) that show all that man has done.

    Romans 15:4 as well as 1 Corinthians 10:12 was written to the assembly made up of both Jews and gentiles - so that would not show support for your thinking.

    Besides, all societies have a form of the ten commandments in which certain laws (murder, adultry, stealing...) are fairly consistent.

    And, don't forget the Hebrew laws also dealt with the "stranger" living in land, too.


    But that is exactly what the word translated propitiation means. It isn't a "covering" as the "atonement" (NIV has it wrong), but the payment in full.

    Remember John 3 states that folks are not condemned for sin, but because of unbelief. In Rev. the same. Folks are condemned because their names are not in the book of life.

    An important point to remember is that although the payment of the penalty for sin (death - for the wages of sin is death) is no longer a debt, that in no way is a statement of "sinless perfection."
    1 John:
    If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

    I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
    Do not be mistaken. Propitiation is NOT reconciliation (atonement).




    I disagree.

    The balance of literal Scripture interpretation and historical anecdote do not represent this time as being anywhere close to the conditions of millennial kingdom, but this is not the thread to discuss eschatology.





    For some time, I considered that thinking as correct. However, when you look at the timeline of the Revelation, and the statement of just who will stand, it does include "all people."

    Now how does that apply to the current church in which Paul says, "There is therefore no condemnation (judgment) of the believer" (for all who are "in Christ" are true believers).

    The GWT is not the same as the "judgment seat of Christ." All believers of this time will have already stood the test of fire (as Paul describes it) and are no longer in their "human form" - though it does not appear what we will be (look like), we will be like him (attributes he possessed after the cross).

    So what believers will stand in human form at the GWT - the millennial ones. Those born during the millennial reign which have also trusted Christ, as well as all Israel (which will be saved).

    I know you don't agree, because you desire the millennium to be now, and that obliges a re-alignment of the timeline. But it also demands that some scriptures be misaligned or voided - for the lamb is still the natural prey of the lion, and children are still snake bit.
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Insistence on an earthly reign of Jesus Christ prior to the White Throne Judgment requires misinterpretation of Scripture. Satan's power to deceive the nations is currently limited and Jesus Christ is now reigning from heaven. After the Judgment all the redeemed will dwell in the New heavens and New Earth!
     
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then you disagree with John:
    Marriage of the Lamb
    7Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
    9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
    The Coming of Christ
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
    17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
    19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
    Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
    20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

    Satan Bound
    20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
    Satan Freed, Doomed
    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
    Judgment at the Throne of God
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
    Old Reg.

    There is no way to take these chapters that John wrote literally and not be consistent with what I posted.

    That you don't take it literally, but have to mold it into some scheme is just proof of what I posted.

    I am always amazed even in my old age, how some will take one area dealing with soteriology as literal, but then refuse the sequence and literal reading of this short part of eschatology presented from John's experience.

    This is the same apostle that wrote so passionately of Christ's ministry, the apostle in whom Jesus loved, and the only apostle to die a natural death after he had cared for the very mother of our Lord from the cross throughout the rest of her life. But come to eschatology, he isn't taken as factual. Surely, his own words are more foundation-ally correct than any allegorical scheme could devise.

    I used to think it was an lack of understanding, or a lack of education, but the entrenchment of some, demanding some other interpretation that relies on far less taking the Scripture and Scriptural sequence as FACT in preference on a scheme that uses abundant allegory and supposition, remains a true mystery.
     
Loading...