Dispensationalism in II Tim 2:15

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by North Carolina Tentmaker, Jun 22, 2004.

  1. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
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    In the thread on Hebrews 6:3-6 we discussed II Tim 2:15. This verse says
    Some ultra dispensationalists have used this verse to support their doctrine that God's plan of salvation has changed over the course of time, that the word of God is divided into different dispensations. Their basic theory is that God saved men differently at different times. For example they believe that Jews of the Old Testament were saved by keeping the law (some believe that Jews today can be saved the same way).

    I would reject this as false teaching of another gospel. I would support my accusation with the following verses
    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. Bro Tony

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    NCT

    Good post. I am glad you put the word Ultra to discribe a fringe group. I am in agreement with you. All people in all ages are saved by faith in the Messiah, Jesus. Clearly the Scripture teaches that the law can save no one and that the sacrifice of animals cannot atone for sin.

    It does seem there are extremist in every camp when it comes to eschatology. But, we are on thin ground to teach that there is salvation outside of Jesus. If that were so then there would have been no real reason for God to send His Son. We could all just keep the law (impossible) or sacrafice a goat.

    Bro Tony
     
  3. Bro Tony

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    BTW--These who put forth this dual covenant theology that the Jews are saved different from gentiles have a real problem with Romans 1:16-17.

    Bro Tony
     
  4. psr.2

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    Hmm.. why bring it over here to discuss?but since you did please explain these verses for me.

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Eph. 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    You cannot explain this away with any of the verses you quoted.

    Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    In other ages was not known? What does that mean to you? If they did not know how could they have been saved like we are?
     
  5. psr.2

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    Tony And Tent maker please answer in seperate posts so I can deal with you individually.
     
  6. Bro Tony

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    Because of Psr.2 contentious nature I will not respond to any of his posts. I will be glad to discuss the above issue with any others posters.

    Bro Tony
     
  7. psr.2

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    That's convenient Tony. You came to another thread, falsely accused me of slander. I showed you where you were wrong and you refused to apologize.
    Now I'm contentious.
    If anyone is interested in what is going on check out the thread on why I hate the KJV debate.
    See where I quoted what someone said about themselves. Then Tony jumps in and says I am slandering the person.
     
  8. Dan Todd

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    psr.2,

    How was Adam saved - by faith in the promise of a Redeemer!

    How was Abraham saved - by faith in the promise of a Redeemer! (Abraham had more knowledge than did Adam.)

    How was Moses saved - by faith in the promise of a Redeemer! (Moses had more knowledge than did Abraham.)

    How was David saved - by faith in the promise of a Redeemer! (David had more knowledge than did Moses.)

    How were old Anna and Simeon saved - by faith in the promise of a Redeemer! (Anna and Simeon had more knowledge than did David.)

    How was Paul saved - by faith in the fact of the promised Redeemer [after the fact]!. (Paul had more knowledge than did Anna and Simeon.)

    How was I saved - by faith in the fact of the promised Redeemer [after the fact]! (I have {the potential for} more knowledge than Paul did - because I have the entire Bible at my disposal.

    The faith exercised by Adam is the same faith that I exercised. Same faith - same salvation. We each responded to God based on the amount of knowledge God wanted us to know. I do have an advantage - because of the completed canon of the Scriptures - but it is the same faith in the same person - so it's the same salvation.

    The "mystery" involves progressive revelation and when God revealed what to whom along the span of time from Adam until today. But the salvation is the same.
     
  9. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Thanks for your response Bro. Tony.

    psr.2 I will explain although I am not sure you are listening.

    Romans 16:25-26 This is the closing of the book and the mystery Paul refers to is the church age itself. The Jews had a lot of trouble accepting Christ because they did not understand there would be two advents. The idea of the Church age and a time period where God would turn his back on the Jewish nation and deal with the Gentiles was unknown and a mystery to them. The scripture and the gospel would be made known to all nations so that they could believe. That was Paul's ministry.

    I Cor 2:7-8 Like Romans this means just what it says. If they had known Jesus was the messiah they would not have killed him. Some undoubtedly did know, but most people then and now reject Jesus without a perfect knowledge of who he is.

    Eph 1:9-10 These verses say exactly what I have been saying. We are all saved in Christ. Those saved during the Old Testament and those in this modern age will be one in Christ, there is no division.

    Eph 3:3-6 Again here we have the same thing I have been saying, Jews and Gentiles will all be one in Christ. " fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" How can you get much clearer than that. All men, Old Testament, New Testament, days past and days to come are all saved through Jesus Christ. There is no salvation in any other.

    Like Bro Tony said, if it was possible to be saved under the law Jesus need not have died.

    Look, I realize that there is a progressive revelation to the word of God and that some of the truths of scripture are much clearer to us today then they were in the pictures of the Old testament. I also realize that God has moved through different dispensations and during which he dealt with different people. He dealt with the world as a whole, then he dealt with Abraham's family. He dealt with the Jews, and today he deals with the Gentiles. But through all these dispensations the saving gospel has not changed one bit.

    They may not have known that he would be called Jesus. They may not have known what a cross was, but they knew the principle of substitutionary atonement and although they knew not the name Jesus Christ they still trusted him (God) for their salvation.
    prs.2, none of the verses you quote say anything about another gospel. In fact they prove my point.
     
  10. North Carolina Tentmaker

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  11. psr.2

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    Well guys if the mystery of Christ was not known in other ages then please explain how they trusted Christ.
    DAn I thought we were discussing scripture. You didn't give any to suppoert your belief.

    If the disciples who walked with Christ in his earthly ministry did not understand the death burial and resurrection why do you think someone in the OLd Test did?

    This is so typical. People wave the banner for what they believe, amen each other on it but cannot produce scrirtureb to back it up.

    Look after Jesus was crucified buried had risen, Mary comes from the tomb to tell the disciples and they don't BELIEVE

    9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
    10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
    11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

    They were not trusting in the death burial resurrection of Christ for their soul
     
  12. amixedupmom

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    It was explained to me that in the Old testament they were looking TO the Cross for salvation. Now that it is past we are looking AWAY from it cause it has already happened.

    [​IMG] Amen Dan
     
  13. psr.2

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    Yes that is the standard teaching however there is absolutely no scripture to back it up. That is the problem with someone hearing the same thing over and over again.
    Example; HAve you ever heard that "spare the rod spoil the child "is in the bible?
    It's not and yet I have sit under pastors who quote it as scripture.
    Have you ever heard this one... "You know that sripture that says God won't give us any greater burden than we can handle."
    That's not a scripture.
    If you will look through the verses I posted you will see. The Old Test saints kept the law and sacrifices to get to paradise which was in the center of the earth. When Christ died he went to paradise and took those saints to heaven. The sacrifices did not get them to heaven but it was necessary to keep them until Christ.
     
  14. KeithS

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    I think what is in the Bible is the principle summarized in your quotation (i.e. Prov. 10:13, Prov. 13:24, etc.). Certainly you are correct that the phrase itself is not in the Bible. I would not berate a pastor that used this as a summary for which there is more than adequate Scriptural support. By the way, Proverbs 22:15 seems to come awfully close with this: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
     
  15. psr.2

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    Yes I understand principle Kieth but not to be quoted as scripture. I said nothing to the pastor or anyone in the church. I am merely making a point of the dangers of calling something scripture that is not scripture. Even to the point of quoting it as a verse.

    Lea you seem genuinely interested in this and it seems possible for you and I to discuss it without all of the accusation stuff.
    If you are interested in discussing this I am very willing to hear you out provided I get the same from you.
     
  16. swaimj

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    People in the OT and the NT were saved by faith. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law or by attempting to keep it. The object of faith or the content which a person believed DOES change from one dispensation to another. Verses have been quoted in reference to Abraham and faith. In all of these, Abraham's faith was in and toward God and specifically to the promise(s) God made to Abraham. No recognized, reputable dispensationalist has ever taught that a man was saved by works or by keeping the law (...and if you want to bring up Scofield's infamous quote from his study notes, I will happily refute it as has been done numerous times previously on this board).
     
  17. swaimj

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    Also, a comment on II Timothy 2:15. This verse is a general command that one who is teaching others is to carefully teach the scriptures with accuracy. It is not specifically intended to teach that the Bible is to be divided into dispensations, though Paul elsewhere does speak of dispensations.
     
  18. psr.2

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    Let's stick with debating people who are alive and present shall we?

    Abrahams faith which was counted to him for righteousness was not faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    James 223 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    Look up the cross reference in Genesis.
    Imputed righteous ness is what receive through the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Come on Swaimj...scripture with scripture
     
  19. psr.2

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    As for 2 Tim 2:15 what do you suppose the rightly dividing is talking about?
    15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
     
  20. psr.2

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    Where was the faith of Old Test saints directed? Looking forward to the cross? No they did not know about it.
    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Eph. 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    You cannot explain this away with any of the verses you quoted.

    Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    In other ages was not known? What does that mean to you? If they did not know how could they have been saved like we are?
     

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