Dispensationalism

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Mar 11, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    The church, according to dispensational doctrine, was unforeseen in the Old Testament and constitutes a "parenthesis" in God's plan for Israel. In the future, the distinction between Jew and Gentile will be reestablished and will continue throughout all eternity. The "parenthesis", or church age, will end at the rapture when Christ comes invisibly to take all believers (excepting OT saints) to heaven to celebrate the "marriage feast of the Lamb" with Christ for a period of seven years.2

    The above is copied from the site found in the thread Dispensationalism sites?

    The Bold and italics are my own. I did this to state that I agree with that which the author says is dispensationalism as shown in bold, and I used the italics to say that I disagree with this representation of what the author has placed in parenthesis.

    I do not believe the O.T. saints will not be at the marriage supper. When you insert this you make alot of problems we may or may not discuss, however, I believe all saved shall be raptured. True I believe the church is the Bride and Israel is not of the church, I believe this is evidenced from John 3.29.

    That Israel is not of the Bride of Christ is not to say the O.T. saints will not be raptured. Am I alone among dispensationalists in believing this way, is this author representing mainstream dispensationalism? I don't know, that is why I am asking.

    I believe a wedding supper will have in its inclusion much more than only the Bride, there are guests, friends, etc.

    Somewhere I have a study of the Jewish Wedding that would have been in the minds of the disciples, IMO, whenever Christ would speak of these things, then you couple the statement of John the Baptist in Ch. 3.29 of John's Gospel and you see the relationship of Israel.

    Just wanted to point this out. I'm sure many disagree, but I was really wondering if the author is representing mainstream dispensationalism and then what would you call what I believe?

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. Gavin

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    Dear Frogman,

    If you look at the pasage below you will see that the bride is the city of God, the New Jerusalem, and very much identified with Israel.

    Why are you agreeing with a doctrine that would cut Israel out of being a part of the bride? Is there some hidden antisemitism here in the dispensationalism?

    The New Jerusalem has 12 gates. One of them, according to Rev. 7 list of the tribes, is Judah. Judah is the royal tribe. Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Jesus, when He comes again, will sit on the throne of David which is in Judah. The Jews, primarily the house of Judah, will be coming back. They will be saved delivered, lock, stock, and barrel at Armageddon, at the end of the trib.--Zech. 12:7-13:1 Are you prepared wait for them to join us?
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/raptrain1.htm

    A word study will show that the Bible speaks of one single elect? God does not have an apartheid policy of "church and Israel". We are grafted into Israel when we are saved. - Rom 11, Gal 3:29 We belong to the commonwealth/citizenship of Israel. -Eph 2:12-13


    Here is our scripture of the bride. There is nothing gentile/heathen about it.

    REVELATION 21
    2 "Then I, John, saw the HOLY CITY, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a BRIDE adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

    Blessings,

    Gavin
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    Not to answer for him but for myself, the answer is exegesis. That is what the Scriptures teach. No where is OT Israel referred to as the bride or even remotely included in the bride. Charges of antisemitism are cheap and out of place. I can't even imagine why that would be said. I think you know better.

    As for OT saints and the rapture, the rapture is for the church. OT saints are not raised until after that according to Dan 12:2 (and some others but my memory fails).
     
  4. Frogman

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    Thanks Gavin,

    That was entertaining. But it seemed to be saying the raptured ones were before those raised from the grave. This might have just been my reading of it.

    The problems I see in my own interpretation is that of election. If all are elected, then logically even those who are not experientially saved and those of Israel too are elected. Can you see this problem without further explanation?

    The problem with your article is equally that of election where you state that those who endure will be granted the rapture ticket, then the fact that your episode includes those raptured before the resurrected dead. As I said it is entertaining, but does not answer the question.

    I am not doubting the resurrection of the O.T. saints, nor the rapture {except} on grounds of works, but the inconsistencey seems to me that of election. I also cannot see where the church is the same as Israel, though I can see the ease for which one would believe this, I do not see Daniels people as being the same as of the church. How can they be when they are figured as the adulterous wife of God while the church is the virtuous bride of Christ?

    Perhaps you are right, or maybe I am, either way we still have the question of the election to deal with. Those left behind who will be saved out of great tribulation either are part of God's elect, or they are made of a group who comes to salvation through works.

    I cannot believe the latter. Just as I cannot believe the Jewish nation will be the church. Sorry if that disappoints you. Maybe it will be of use for you to know that I don't read Tim Lahaye either.

    I see the Tribulation as the 'time of Jacob's trouble' this is distinct to me, from that of the church. Sorry.

    Edited to facilitate understanding on what grounds I would doubt the rapture of any.
    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. Frogman

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    As for OT saints and the rapture, the rapture is for the church. OT saints are not raised until after that according to Dan 12:2 (and some others but my memory fails).

    Pastor Larry,

    I had never heard this before and this was the question I think I originally had in my original post. You give Dan. 12.2 and say there are others, could you give them later? Thanks.

    no hard feeling Gavin. I just don't see where that the bride is going to include Israel. As for the problem with the election and the rapture, this would be just the entrance into the dispensation of dealing with Israel to bring them to look upon the one they pierced, so this even would be dealt with under the Sovereignty of God, IMO.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. timothy 1769

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    No where is OT Israel referred to as the bride or even remotely included in the bride.

    how about song of solomon and ezekiel 16?
     
  7. Frogman

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    Song of Solomon is written of the Church, by Solomon, the type of Christ in His reign.

    5.8-9: "I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love. What is thy beloved more than another beloved, O thou fairest among women? what is thy beloved, that thou doest so charge us?"

    As for Ez. 16 vs. 32 calls this wife: "But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband."

    This does not equate to the church which has for its head Christ and only Christ. Sure there are those who call themselves a church, but they have not the Husband as their Head.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. Daniel David

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    Frogman, I will just say this:

    Daniel was told to seal up the book and to go rest until the end of these days (the persecution of his people, the Jews) and then he will rise.

    The church on the other hand is spoken of the bride that is hidden in Christ. So, those who are raised immediately before the rapture are those who have died that were saved during the time of the bride of Christ.

    This is a clarification of dispensationalism. If you want to argue a point, repent. Just kidding. Start another thread.
     
  9. Frogman

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    Bro. Preach,

    My question was pertaining to the teaching that O.T. saints would not be raptured. The last post I gave was out of line, I assume the point you are referring to is the difference in the Bride and Israel??

    Either way you and Pastor Larry have answered my question. I had never heard it taught to this depth.

    Is Matt. 25 used to teach this?

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. Tim

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    I vote we keep the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles down (Eph. 2:11-19) instead of trying to build it up again.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  11. KenH

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    Dispensationalism sure is complicated. :D
     
  12. Daniel David

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    Me also. Now, I am a dispensationalist. Will you still misrepresent us?
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    As do we.

    Ken,

    Dispensationalism is far less complicated than its alternative. At least we don't have to change the text to make it fit our system :D
     
  14. rufus

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    I consider O.T. saints, like John the Baptist, to be guests at the wedding banquet which Jesus and His bride, the N.T. church, enjoy together. IMHO

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  15. Gavin

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    Dear Pastor Larry,

    Sorry for the delay in responding. I do not mean to be provocative for the sake of being provocative. My only burden is to see the scriptures treated with respect. I pray that we recognise when we are leaving the Bible and have decided to go with church tradition or popular sentiment. I believe this church-Israel apartheid policy is wrong whether it comes from Amil or Postmil or even if it comes from the dispensationalism I was saved under and grew up with. I respect and love all the brethren even as I bring these potentially grievous matters to their attention.

    Originally posted by
    GAVIN:&gt;&gt;&gt; "Why are you agreeing with a doctrine that would cut Israel out of being a part of the bride? Is there some hidden antisemitism here in the dispensationalism?"
    --------------------

    PASTOR LARRY&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Not to answer for him but for myself, the answer is exegesis. That is what the Scriptures teach. No where is OT Israel referred to as the bride or even remotely included in the bride.

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; How about the whole story of OT Israel being a love story? Then through the prophets Israel in idolatry was repeatedly referred to by God as a harlot? This is all through the OT and specifically in Hosea. Gomer/Israel would not have been called a harlot wife of YHVH if she had not first been the bride of YHVH.

    PASTOR LARRY&gt;&gt;&gt; Charges of antisemitism are cheap and out of place. I can't even imagine why that would be said. I think you know better.

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt; In view of our nasty church history it would be flippant of us, the dominant church in the 21st century, to say that antisemitism could never bubble up from our midst. Here are the facts, facts that even dear Zola knows. We as evangelicals have cut ourselves off from Israel theologically through our dispensationalism, right? Would it not be prudent of us to be watchful that this theological alienation did not manifest itself as political or social alienation, even antisemitism? After all, didn't the same thing happen when the amillennialist, "we are the real Israel", style "replacemant theology" spawned the crusades, the inquisitions, the pogroms and the holocaust?

    PASTOR LARRY&gt;&gt;&gt; As for OT saints and the rapture, the rapture is for the church. OT saints are not raised until after that according to Dan 12:2 (and some others but my memory fails).
    ---------------

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt;The passage you are referring to is Dan 12:9-13. Daniel is promised that he will be resurrected after the final consumation (or post-trib). Daniel is told that he will "stand in his lot" or enter the mansions of glory with all the saints as time gives way to eternity.

    "you shall stand in your lot/inheritance at the end of the days." -Dan.12:13

    This late time resurrection of Daniel is the same time the church is raised in the "first resurrection". -Rev. 20:4-6 As we see clearly in the text here in Rev. 20 the church as it is glorified in the resurrection/rapture includes tribulation martyrs. So this "first resurrection" must be post-trib. And since it is the "first resurrection" there can be no other resurrection preceeding it to accompany a rapture 7 years earlier. Because 1Thes. 4:15-17 says that "the dead in Christ will be raised first". There can be no rapture without the resurrection occurring first. Correct? And the only resurrection we see in scripture is a late one. Jesus Himself told us four times that the resurrection would be at the "last day" and He meant what He said. Not one millisecond earlier.-John 6:39. 6:40, 6:44, and 6:54.

    So pre-trib MUST have two resurrections to make a pre-trib rapture work. Two resurrections that cannot be found anywhere in scripture.
     
  16. Gavin

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    RUFUS&gt;&gt;&gt; I consider O.T. saints, like John the Baptist, to be guests at the wedding banquet which Jesus and His bride, the N.T. church, enjoy together. IMHO

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt; You would really exclude the OT saints from your congregation/ekklesia?
    How about the tribulation saints in the passage below?
    If these blood washed, tried and true, faithful unto death tribulation saints were coming up for church membership at your church how would you vote?
    Would you vote for them to be admitted into your church company?
    Or would you cut them off?
    Before you answer please be warned.
    Be careful how you answer.
    Because this is a blood covenant matter.
    Don't get yourself caught crosswise from God Almighty on this one.
    Their angels are watching and listening.
    And they obviously have access to the thone of God.

    REVELATION 7
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
     
  17. rufus

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    No sir, I would not because they never were members of my congregation!!

    [​IMG]
     
  18. 4study

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    To those who believe "OT saints" will not be in the bride:

    Are you suggesint that all those mentioned in Hebrews 11 are not going to be in the bride simply because of their position in time? Why?
     
  19. Gavin

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    Dear Rufus,

    We in the present day congregation/ekklesis/"called our company" are saved by grace through faith in the promised Sacrifice Lamb, our Lord Jesus. My understanding of the Old Covenant is that the OT saints were saved in exactly the same way, that is by grace through faith in the promised Sacrifice Lamb. Psalm 139 shows that the deal with God always was and always will be a faith matter based on a relationship of the heart between the believer and his God.

    No one has ever been saved any other way. If anyone ever told you that the Jews or the tribulation saints were or will be saved by the keeping of the law they are teaching "another gospel". And that is a serious matter indeed.

    Blessings,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Gavin, such radical ideas do exist unfortunately. I will say that that is hyperdispensationalism. Pastor Larry and myself (two dispies) believe that people have always been saved the same way: by grace through faith. I would go so far as to say that if you believe people can be saved by works, you are a false teacher.
     

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