Dispensationalism

What???? Will you explain why Israel is the church?

 

What???? Will you explain why Israel is the church?

Let me ask you, who are the descendants of Abraham according to the New Covenant?

 

Askjo,

We have to read whole of Romans chapter 11 with context.

Does God cast his people away? NO! Romans 11:1-2 tells us that God does NOT forsake his people. Romans 11:7 tells us, the natural Jews were cast away because of their blind.

Roman 11:5 tells us, there is a 'remnant' according to the election of grace. That mean there is a group, not a whole nation or whole Jewish people.

God does not cast Jews away from the branch, those who are believing on Jesus Christ. The believing Jewsare remain stay on the same tree.

Unbelief Jews were removed from the branches.

So, Romans 11:11 tells us, Gentiles are now seeing their salvation.

Romans 11:17 tells us, Gentiles are 'wild olive tree' are grafted into shar with believing Jews together on the same tree.

Romans 11:20 tells us, that Jews were cast off or removed from the branches because of their unbelief.

Romans 11:25 tells the blindness happened to Israel(natural Jews), SO..... the Gentiles ar grafted into the branches by belief.

SO.... the result o Romans 11:26 says, "And SO ALL Israel shall be saved:..." Means, both all Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ, all are saved. Both Jews and Gentiles are share together on the same tree - Jesus Christ.

So, therefore, we are Israel. Church is Israel, Israel is Church.

Eph. 2:12 tells us, that Gentiles were being Aliens, strangers searate FROM the commonwealth of Israel.

But, Eph. 2:13-15 tell us, Gentiles are NOW unity together with Jews through Jesus Christ by Calvary, to make both into ONE body.

Also, 1 Peter 2:9 tells us, that we(Gentiles & Jews) are 'a chosen generation', 'a royal priesthood', 'an HOLY NATION', 'a peculiar(special) peole', because we are called OUT of darknss into the light by through the Calvary of salvation.

These are not hard to reading and understand what these are talking about.

God only have ONE family in heaven and on earth - these people whosever believe on Jesus Christ, they are the children of God - Gal. 3:26. Means, both Jews and Gentiles whosever believe on Jesus Christ, they are the children of God - one family.

Dispensationlism cause people into confusion and misunderstand on their teaching, because of full of theory and logical.

I do not believe in the division or split among the Body of Christ as Church. I believe there is only ONE unity in the body of Christ. Both Jews and Gentiles whososever believe on Jesus Christ, are unity into ONE body of Christ - Church.

That is so simple, no complex.

Soldier of Christ
2 Tim. 2:3 - Amen!

 

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (KJV)

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (KJV)

 

Are we the Jews?

 

Askjo,

Cannot you understand what the whole context of Romans chapter 11 talking about?

 

Askjo,

I ask you another question.

Was Abraham, a Jew at his birth first place?

How about Abel? Was Abel, a Jew?

 

I hate to point out the obvious again, but hte very passage you are citing proves there is a distinction between Israel and the church. Israel and teh church are contrasted. Exegetically, they cannot be the same thing. If they were, the passage would make no sense.

You are right that this is not complex. This is in fact what dispenstionalism teaches ... there is only one body of Christ and there is unity. Both Jews and Gentiles are a part of the church. Where you are confused is in identifying what the church is. The church did not exist in the OT. It exists in the NT only. And the existence of the church does not negate the promises made to Israel, as Paul so clearly states. Failing to make vital scriptural distinctions leads to a faulty position on the church. Exegesis of the text must be the rule of the day.

 

I hate to point out the obvious again, but hte very passage you are citing proves there is a distinction between Israel and the church. Israel and teh church are contrasted. Exegetically, they cannot be the same thing. If they were, the passage would make no sense.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree because postribulation contradicts with the church and Israel.

During the church age there is the Holy Spirit who takes care of these believers. However During the beginning of tribulation, the Holy Spirit will be absent.

 

God in speaking through the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 3:2-5 believed in dispensations of time. The prophets of the O.T. knew nothing of the concept and blessings of the coming church age. [Ephesians 3:5] Under the former covenant [Hebrews 8:6] the followers of Jehovah Lord were communicants to the tent/sanctuary and later to the Temple, but they never even had in their mind the concept of being a part of the church--the called out ones.

Under the former covenant the believers in God had the Holy Spirit around their human self, but never enjoyed the comfort and guidance coming from the indwelling Holy Spirit of God as we experienced since the Day of Pentecost.

I. Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

AMEN! God's promise to Abraham was only fulfilled in SOME of his descendents. His promise to Israel will only be fulfilled in SOME Jews. Nothing about the church becoming Israel...

AMEN! they're blessed WITH him - they didn't "become" the Jews! We're grafted on, and the Jews will be grafted BACK!

 

While there is no disagreement as to there being only one REDEEMED people of God, there is no denying that those Israelites who were not true Israel were still God's phisical covenant people in a way that the NT church is not. Hence, two people's of God- one phisical, one spiritual. However, as was brought out from Rom.11, there will be a day in the future when all surviving Ethnic Israel will BECOME Spiritual Israel with the rest of the redeemed.
There was a division in the OT between regenerate and unregenerate Israel. There is a division today between true Israel (of which saved gentiles are part) and the unsaved world. In the future there will be a division between Israel and the rest of the world. And then during the millenium, with the fullfilment of the final end of the New Covenant, all Israel will be saved-resulting in one people of God during that time. Yet even then there will be a distinction, as Ethnic Spiritual Jews serve as priests, while Non-ethnic Spiritual Jews (us) serve politically.

 

Amen, Brother Scott Cline -- Preach it!

 

Scott,

Eph. 2:12 tells us, that we(Gentiles) were being aliens frm the commonwealth of Israel, and were strangers from the covenants of promise. Without have hope.

But, Eph. 2:13-16 tell us, NOW we are reconciled unity together with Jews into ONE BODY of Christ through Calvary. Christ already broken the wall between Jews and Gentiles down, to make both reconciled together into ONE BODY.

So, we are spiritual Israel - 1 Peter 2:9.

Romans 11:25-26 tell us, that unbelief Jew were removed from the tree, and Gentiles are graft into, SO all(both Gentiles & Jews)Israel are saved. That is the result of the cross, that Gentiles are now graft into because Christ already reconcile us to join with believing Jews together into ONE BODY of Christ.

These scriptures are not hard to read and understand.

In Christ
Rev.22:20 - Amen!

 

Well, my Post-tribulational brother, I agree as far as there being only one group of redeemed individuals. And also, that church seems to be "Spiritual Israel" in some symbolic sense. We're all "in the same fishtank", as they say. Actually, we're in the same fishtank in two senses:
1.) In the sense that we all make up the church during this period.
2.) In the sense that we are all eternally redeemed.
However, there will still be periods of distinction between Ethnic Israel and the church. For one, during the tribulation period, unsaved Ethnic Israel plays a very distinctive part. And also, it seems that there will be distinction (as I said in my previous post) during the millenium, between Ethnic Spiritual Jews, and Non-ethnic Spiritual Jews.
Another thing, though, is that your interpretation of Rom.11 seems to result in universalism. I'm sure I mistook your explanation, and give you the benefit of the doubt. But, if ALL ISRAEL means both Jews and Gentiles, than that means everyone without exception is saved! I don't see why we must spiritualize Scripture, rather than simply taking its plain sense. If it says 'Israel', than I read 'Israel'. Especially since the context is certain members of ETHNIC Israel being cut off, it follows that vs.26 means all surviving members of ETHNIC Israel will be saved. I admit that the church is Spiritual Israel in some sense, but certain passages are clearly dealing with only Ethnic Israel, such as this one.

 

THey most certainly are not hard to understand. But remember who Paul is writing to ... He is writing to the church. He is not writing to Israel as a nation and that is the crux of the matter that you are overlooking.

 

Pastor Larry,


I would like to hear your intepreting on Galatians chapter 3, and Ephesians 2:12-16. Also, I ask you, what is the purpose of Calvary? - Please. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

This is an interesting topic. I have always been a dispensationalist. This is what the churches I have been a member of have always taught.

I do not know enough about this subject to either agree or disagree with what I have read. I will be the first to admit that there is too much about the prophecies and their future fulfillment that causes me to wonder if any group of Christians have it all figured out.

I appreciate this thread because it will cause me to study the Bible more closely and that is always a good thing.

Thank all of your for your comments. I have enjoyed reading them.

 

I have given it many times. It is why I am a dispensationalists. These passages clearly teach unity in the body of Christ. They do not teach that Israel has become the church or that the NT church is ISrael. Gal 3 clearly states that the promise cannot be annulled. Therefore, the abrahamic covenant is still in effect for Israel, the nation.

It was a place of crucifixion where criminals were punished. With respect to Christ, his death on teh cross was to atone for sins.

 

Pastor Larry, apparently you have given your interp. of Gal.3 and Eph.2 b4, but as I am new, I havn't had the priviledge of reading them. If you wouldn't mind, could you write them again- or private message them to me? I'd appreciate it.
As a fellow dispy dealing with these passages, I've ended up just confessing that the church is in fact Spiritual Israel, in some symbolic sense, without nullifying the distinct role of Ethnic Israel- this is something like Progressive Dispyism. However, if there is a better way to handle these passages, I'd like to know. Thanx