1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Diversity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rebel, Feb 21, 2015.

Top Posters
Page 3 of 5
  1. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    You have it essentially correct. Why do I say that and have confidence in saying it? Because I lost the faith of my childhood and briefly became an agnostic. I wanted to know what was true, so I went on a very extensive search, looking at every major religion and some minor ones, and researching the early Christian churches, the fathers, and other early writings. I had no denominational bias, as I wanted to know objective truth and historical facts. The organization of the earliest churches is as you have written.
     
    #41 Rebel, Feb 23, 2015
  2. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    This is a good point, and I say this as one who recognizes the evidence of the Historic Episcopate from very early times in the history of the Church. If I have time I'll flesh out my reasoning and the evidence for this later, but I did want to heartily agree that having a heirarchy based merely upon tactile successinon certainly doesn't guarantee the preservation of orthodoxy.

    (For full disclosure I am a member of an ACNA parish)
     
    #42 Doubting Thomas, Feb 24, 2015
  3. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    The "Historic Episcopate" was indeed established and widespread by the end of the second century. That is true.

    I must say that I admire the ACNA. They have tried to establish relationships with several denominations, including those not having bishops in apostolic succession. And they are very strong on orthodoxy.
     
    #43 Rebel, Feb 24, 2015
  4. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Same here! The churches within The Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin here in the Central Valley of California have risked losing their properties by withdrawing from TEC and for the sake of the gospel. I have many local Anglican friends who tell me it was simply time to stand up for Jesus. Many people believe their leaving TEC was over ordination of non-celibate homosexuals but it isn't hard to track the heresies of The Episcopal Church. Homosexual ordination was just the last straw. I remember DHK asking why they didn't stay and fight. Here is why. There are almost no orthodox dioceses left within TEC and almost no orthodox bishops. That means there is almost no possibility of any more orthodox (bible believing) bishops gaining consents to be consecrated (ordained). I agree with Doubting Thomas, the historic episcopate is not a guarantee that a denomination will keep it's theological moorings. There was a time when Arianism was followed by a majority of bishops. It took Athanasius to bring back orthodoxy.
     
    #44 Walter, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2015
  5. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When I was in the Virginia Defense Force, our Chaplain was Reformed Episcopal - and I remember when he preached in Chapel -- he was preaching the Word of God!
     
    #45 Salty, Feb 24, 2015
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is indeed real diversity in the Body of Christ, but there are also MANY so called churches today, such as RCC/SDA/WOF etc that are claiming to be Christian churches, yet they are not!
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Feb 24, 2015
  7. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    The REC, one of the core founding groups of ACNA, is generally pretty solid. :thumbs:

    I guess my biggest concern with ACNA is the unresolved issue of WO. (Some dioceses do, and some don't).
     
    #47 Doubting Thomas, Feb 24, 2015
  8. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    DHK, while you make a great case for the word usage of the NT, you do not explain why St. Timothy, who was placed in charge of a church by St. Paul, then writes to St. Paul for guidance in matters and St. Paul responds to him. If there was no hierarchy as you clam, then St. Timothy would have been on his own and felt no need to write St. Paul in the first place.

    Likewise, there would have been no meeting of the Apostles in Jerusalem over the Judiazers issue and no letter sent to all the churches if there in fact were not a hierarchy in the early church.
     
    #48 Walter, Feb 24, 2015
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There were the Apostles, and also the local pastors, and the elders/deacons, but there was NO papacy, nor any one other than the 12 Apost;es ever recognized as being the 'final authority"
     
    #49 Yeshua1, Feb 24, 2015
  10. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    What's wrong with that, with allowing freedom of conscience on the matter? I don't put women's ordination in the same boat as homosexual ordination.
     
    #50 Rebel, Feb 24, 2015
  11. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    I know how I would answer that, but since you addressed the question to DHK, I'll let him answer first.
     
    #51 Rebel, Feb 24, 2015
  12. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Yes, that is exactly the situation in TEC.
     
    #52 Rebel, Feb 24, 2015
  13. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    #53 Rebel, Feb 24, 2015
  14. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    That is wonderful news! I was reading the Diocese of Quincy (which also withdrew from TEC and was being sued by TEC for the property) also won their lawsuit against TEC and that TEC is even being sanctioned for violating the courts order to allow the Anglican diocese to have access to their bank accounts as well as keeping their properties. Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin is appealing the decision by a liberal judge in Fresno in their attempts to keep their property. Hopefully, these other cases decisions may help the orthodox in future lawsuits. Diocese of Fort Worth decision is expected soon.
     
    #54 Walter, Feb 24, 2015
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Left my thinking cap at work
    Are you talking about Warrant Officer ?
     
    #55 Salty, Feb 24, 2015
  16. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    WO=Women's Ordination

    In the ACNA it is left to 'local option', I believe. While in the Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin women are ordained as Deacons, there are no women ordained as presbyters. Some ACNA dioceses have women presbyters and other do not. There has been no decision made so far as to whether this 'local option' will continue within the ACNA province or not. There are seems to be many in the 'continuum' that are waiting to see what the ACNA does before deciding to join. That is what Doubting Thomas was speaking of when he mentioned his only concern was how WO would play out. There are other 'continuing Anglican/Episcopal churches' that are practicIing this local option. The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches is one of them. Others, like The Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) and The Anglican Church of America (ACA) do not allow WO at all. I believe the Reformed Episcopal Church (part of the ACNA merger) would oppose WO. It is the 'fly in the ointment' for the ACNA province. I hope they can find a solution because what the 'continuing church' does not need is another split.
     
    #56 Walter, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2015
  17. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    Yeah, here is where we ask: for which issues do we allow "freedom of conscience"? I know you had mentioned earlier that when Scripture clearly speaks, we don't have the freedom to disobey---and to that I agree. But those like me who oppose WO see this clearly forbidden by Scripture in that males only are allowed to be bishops/presbyters. Couple this with the unanimous teaching of the Church (up until four decades ago), and one can see that WO is at the very least a troublesome doctrinal novelty leading to division in the Church. At worse it seems historically to have led down the slippery slope to ordination of practicing h0m0sexuals and the condoning of same-sex "marriage".
     
    #57 Doubting Thomas, Feb 25, 2015
  18. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    Good points--it seems like there was at least a simple hierarchy in the early Church of sorts.
     
    #58 Doubting Thomas, Feb 25, 2015
  19. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Besides the example of Junia in the New Testament, consider these articles. There is indeed evidence for women's ordination outside of what became the RCC and the EOC.

    http://books.google.com/books/about/Ordained_Women_in_the_Early_Church.html?id=7XRvIiltytUC

    http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/femdruids/FalloftheDruidesses.html

    http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/femdruids/Bridget.html

    http://www.arcwp.org/art_always.html
    A quote from this article:
    "In "Meehan, Praying with Celtic Holy Women," I wrote that The Irish Life of Brigit describes the episcopal ordination of St. Brigit of Kildare by Bishop Mel of Ardagh in fifth century Ireland.

    The evidence in the Celtic Church indicates that women and men were equals in preaching the Gospel, presiding at Mass and at the other sacraments. Historian Peter Ellis wrote that in the sixth century, three Roman bishops at Tours wrote a letter to two Breton priests Lovocat and Cathern, expressing their outrage that women were allowed to preside at Eucharist. "You celebrate the divine sacrifice of the Mass with the assistance of women to whom you give the name conhospitae (monasteries where men and women lived together and raised their children in the service of Chris) ...While you distribute the eucharist, they take the chalice and administer the blood of Christ to the people... Renounce these abuses...!"

    In mixed-gender monasteries, men and women worked as equals. However, the overall authority within a double monastery often resided with an abbess. St. Brigit selected Conleth to help her administer Kildare, and they governed "their church by a mutual, happy alliance."

    The tradition of a Christian seeking a spiritual guide, mentor or "soul friend" was a prevalent Celtic custom. Women as well as men served as spiritual friends. This custom eventually influenced the entire Church and led to the institutionalizing of private confession. There are stories of spiritual seekers coming to Saint Ita and Saint Samthann to reveal their sins and to receive forgiveness and guidance."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigit_of_Kildare
     
    #59 Rebel, Feb 25, 2015
  20. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Since DHK hasn't answered yet, I'll give a brief answer. The ministry of the apostles was a unique situation in the church's beginning that was unrepeatable. When they all died or were martyred, no one replaced them. Even so, they did not force their beliefs or decisions on anyone or require anyone to accept or abide by them. That pastors and churches should desire and give heed to their advice and counsel was only natural, and wise.

    This says to me that the true "apostolic succession" is in following the teachings of the apostles and has nothing to do with who laid hands on a person. This can be seen in all the apostate clergy who claim apostolic succession.
     
    #60 Rebel, Feb 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2015
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 5
Loading...