Divorce and its relationship to Godly living!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rev. Lowery, Feb 20, 2007.

  1. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    I know that many times this issue has came up and been discussed and I don't believe 1 more time would hurt at all.

    I live in Western NC surrounded by Baptists of every denomination, I was raised Baptist and was a member of a Baptist church for 12 years. I always wondered though where does the idea that divorce negates a man or womans position, if one is held, within the church even if the divorce is presalvation.

    Why, and I ask this from speaking to at least 10 local pastors, is divorce considered an almost unforgivable sin.

    From what I understand this is the mentality, If you are saved and you do get divorced you are not to remarry because it causes you and the person you marry to commit adultery. But, if you do remarry are you to divorce a second time? Will God forgive the adultery? If you remain married are you living in sin? Does divorcing for a second time not compound the sin?

    I ask because the Bible says
    2 Corinthians 5:15-18 (King James Version)


    15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
    16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
    17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    Romans 8:28-39


    28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
    31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
    "For your sake we face death all day long;
    we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    It just seems that God understands man and If God forgives why cant man see that God forgives sin no matter the sin regardless of the state man is in God can renew man and that sin is no more and forgiveness abounds through the grace of God!



    So why do so many say that if your divorced you cant lead within a church but they will have a former alcoholic, rapist, child molesting, sicko, as a pastor and thats totally fine? I don't understand this?!?!?!
     
  2. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611
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    "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" - 1 Timothy 3:2

    An alcoholic, rapist, child molesting, sicko would qualify as blameful. One who has been divorced and/or remarried is not the husband of one wife. Thus, if folks are interested in the scriptural criteria for being a bishop, then those men do not meet the defined criteria.
     
  3. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    I understand that so.........how does what a man does before salvation disqualify him from leadership?
     
  4. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    Husband of one wife <------ its debatable as to exactly what Paul was saying here!

    That could mean that you must be married to be a bishop or only married once.

    Or it could mean no polygamy.

    Then there is Matthew 19:9
    9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. <------ If a man marry's a divorced woman he commits adultery...........This says nothing about if a woman commits fornication and her husband puts her away he cant remarry it fact it says if she commits forncation he can remarry!

    The above post shows in corinthians where when your become saved all things are new so the life before salvation is no more! <-----This is the thinking of most I have spoke with except in cases of divorce it seems they feel that the sin of divorce still remains.

    It seems that you can divorce and remarry if the situation is like that of Matthew 19:9
     
    #4 Rev. Lowery, Feb 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2007
  5. Rufus_1611

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    Perhaps it is debatable. For me, it means the bishop must be married, should only have been married once and should not be married to more than one woman. He should be the husband of one wife.

    I believe that Matthew 19:9 shows that in specific circumstances divorce is lawful, though not encouraged as this allowance was due to the hardness of heart described in the previous verse. Whereas, Timothy is describing the criteria for the office of a Bishop. This office is a higher office than being a layman and has a higher expectation for those who hold this office. Not eveyone is qualified to be a Bishop, doesn't mean they can't be used by God in other profitable areas, just means they don't qualify in this arena.
     
  6. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    Then by Paul's own standards, and the interpretation of those standards, he couldn't be a leader but yet he was, Paul was a murderer and yet he was a disciple and a leader!

    So I don't understand how ppl can say that what you have done presalvation limits you in your ability to hold office.........
     
  7. tragic_pizza

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    Well, come on over to the PC(USA). We don't split those kinds of theological hairs. If God calls someone to serve, God calls someone to serve.
     
  8. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611
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    What was being described was the office of a Bishop not the role of a leader.
     
  9. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611
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    Come on over to the PCUSA where a woman can be man and a he can be a she!

    "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. " - 1 Timothy 3:1
     
  10. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    Whats a Bishop?

    Ok I can see I was not clear on my statement........


    [bish-uh[​IMG]p] noun, verb, -oped, -op·ing. –noun 1.a person who supervises a number of local churches or a diocese, being in the Greek, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and other churches a member of the highest order of the ministry. 2.a spiritual supervisor, overseer, or the like. <----- If that doesn't scream leader I don't know what does


    This was Pauls position he was a spiritual supervisor, overseer, or the like to say Paul was higher ranking than a bishop would not be to bold by no means. So. if Paul can murder and be forgiven and be acceptable then why cant anyone else thats been forgiven and accepted Christ, given that post salvation they meet the standards because if we say a man must meet them from birth than no one will be able to fill the office except Christ!
     
    #10 Rev. Lowery, Feb 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2007
  11. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
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    This has always been my issue with the teaching regarding qualifications and divorce. People have placed divorice, which is not even mentioned in the qualifications, above all the other qualifications.

    This is very inconsistent. We hear stories all the time of God using people that have broken all of the other qualifications presalvation, yet if a man is divorced before salvation then he is disqualified.
     
  12. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    Where does this come from?

    Where does this kind of thinking come from?

    How can one man say to another, I can because I did it presalvation but your divorced or divorced and remarried so your not qualified.

    I don't get it????

    How do these ppl call themselves teachers of the Word of God when they miss a basic simple theological point!
     
  13. Rew_10

    Rew_10
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    I really don't even understand why this is even debated. Are you suggesting that getting a divorce degrades someone's moral integrity? And, if so, how?

    People change and I don't see why it is expected that every marriage is suppose to last until death. Would you rather two people who don't love each other any more stay together to "save face"?
     
  14. Rufus_1611

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    This kind of thinking comes from the Bible. Observe 1 Timothy 5:9.

    "Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man." - 1 Timothy 5:9

    This entry into the order of widowhood...is it allowed within this verse that it is possible for this widow to have been the wife of more than one man or is it clear that she must be 60 years old and been the wife of just one man?

    If that same expression is used in the criteria of a bishop...

    "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" - 1 Timothy 3:2

    ...why would it not be clear that a bishop must be the husband of but one wife?

    It doesn't mean that someone is not forgiven of their pre-salvation sin, it just means that there is something that folks can take hold upon that would damage the office of a bishop and therefore that person does not qualify for the position.

    For example, there is a pastor out there that advocates for the King James Bible and he's quite popular. Dude has been married three times and divorced two times, one marriage and divorce prior to salvation and the others post. He has done great disservice both to the office of a bishop and to the advocacy for the King James Bible by his neglect of this criteria. He could've still served the Lord admirably in another capacity but he was not called to pastor as the Bible is explicit on the criteria. The object should be "thy will be done" not "my will be done".
     
  15. ccrobinson

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    It has something to do with making a vow to each other. It's the part that goes "...forsaking all others, till death do us part." When you get married, feel free to leave that part of it out of your own vows. I'm sure your fiancee will totally understand that you might change.

    I mean, you can't be expected to love her when she gets old and doesn't look as pretty as she did when she was young, right? After all, when you're tired of her, you can just get rid of her, right? I assume this means that she can just dump you when she gets tired of you too?

    Let us know how that works out for you. :wavey:
     
  16. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    So.........If what a man does presalvation has to be counted then how could Paul have been a disciple and preacher and a man of God?

    He was a murderer!

    So if the standards are to be applied to all men in all times and in all situations then the only man that fits the standards to be a bishop is Christ himself!


    "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" - 1 Timothy 3:2

    Must a man have always been all of these to fill the office of bishop............?

    Paul, was a murderer!
    Peter, was not vigilant!
    Noah, was not sober!
    Not all the disciple's had educations!
    Some disciples where never married so they never had a wife and there for where not the husband of one wife!
    Jonah, was not of good behavior!

    None where blameless!
     
    #16 Rev. Lowery, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2007
  17. Eliyahu

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    Throughout my life I have noticed the following cases were arguable or discussable.
    -a) Divorce before Salvation
    - b) Fornication or Adultery of the spouse
    - c) persecution of the faith by the spouse, this often happens in non-Christian countries, but even in Canada, it happens among the immigrants society.

    I think a) was forgiven by Holy Spirit at the time of Salvation.
    b) was approved by Jesus.
    c) is partly rejected and partly approved by 1 Cor 7:12-16
    ( in this case whether the marriage was done before salvation or after salvation is important)

    In case of c) the persecution of the believer by the unbeliever,
    I believe, if the violence is involved, it means the spouse doesn't like the other who is a believer. Then one should say "I have to decide between God and man, and I would follow God" I remember a lady who tried to do her utmost to keep the commandments but her husband threw a cola can onto her head, which was very dangerous.

    The main problem is that Mt 19:9 is very hardline expression.
    BTW, the Bishop in 1 tim 3 is Episkope which may be best translated as "overseer" as we read in Acts 20:28, Paul called the elders of Ephesian Assembly as Overseers, which equates Episkope with Presbytero. Titus 1 implies this as well.
    For the Elders or Overseers, more qualification may be necessary, and I believe that the discernment by the local church is important.


    1 Cor 7:
    12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

    (www.crosswalk.com)

    What we have to clearly avoid is the divorce pursuing the sexual desire.
     
    #17 Eliyahu, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  18. rbell

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    [sarcasm] Then live together. Shack up. Sleep around. [/sarcasm] Making a vow in front of God and others is not something that one should desire to break.

    Perhaps you could help me as I help teenagers pick up the shattered wrecks of their lives...why? Because "people change:"
    • Because Mom put on 20 pounds and Dad found a hottie.
    • Because Dad got hooked on painkillers and squandered the possessions to get more.
    • Because Mom met a better catch at work, and dumped dad.
    • Because Mom and Dad "don't love each other anymore" and to heck with the babies they made. It's not THAT important to have a mom and dad together. Girls will figure out just fine how to be treated by men...they can read a book or something. Guys can learn how to treat women by asking their teammates on the football team.
    • Because there's "millions of hot women" waiting to meet Dad on match.com, and the sex life with the wife has lost its zip.
    Give me a break. "Save face," my left cheek. My response to that attitude is: Man up and keep your vows. Furthermore, treat that wife like you should, be the man that you should, and raise your kids like you should.

    I am sickened when I hear this kind of flippant and cavalier attitude toward such a holy institution as marriage. I don't think you have a clue how young lives are destroyed.

    Please do me a favor. Don't marry...EVER...unless this attitude of yours changes. If you must marry (bad idea with this approach) then NEVER EVER have kids. If and when you do, send them my way, and I'll do my best to help them with the wreckage.

    Mad? You bet I'm mad. Half of the kleenex I hand out are to kids who are busted up because well, you know, people change, and mom and dad don't love each other anymore, and...

    Absolutely nauseating.
     
  19. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery
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    Signed.......................I 1000% agree

    My question still remains can one serve God after a divorce, presalvation or post salvation, in any capacity I would say, "Yes they can in the understanding that post salvation any and all qualifications are meet."
     
  20. ccrobinson

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    I completely agree, rbell.

    This is coming from a secular worldview. I heard the garbage that Rew was spewing, almost word for word, nearly 20 years ago in Sociology 101. It was garbage then and it's still garbage now.
     

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