Do All Calvinists Hold that regeneration seperate from saved by God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Feb 14, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

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    Or is that mainly in reformed/Hyper branch?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Well you know you have to be saved before you can be saved. :rolleyes:
     
  3. kyredneck

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    ...hey, Rev, you're comin' rite along man; keep it up! You mite get there some day!
     
  4. convicted1

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    Regeneration ain't conversion...
     
  5. Winman

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    Sure it is Willis, haven't you read Titus 3:5?

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    A person is saved by the washing of regeneration. This shows what regeneration is, to be cleansed and forgiven of one's sins. We are saved from our sins.

    Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    regeneration is unto salvation, as the process happens to us at same time, as God enables and the sinner responds thru receiving Jesus by faith!

    No regenerated walking around not also "saved!"

    As God regenerates at a specific time/place to have them get then saved!
     
  7. kyredneck

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    ....and Abraham's status prior to Gen 15:6?
     
  8. kyredneck

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    ....or Cornelius's status prior to Acts 10?
     
  9. kyredneck

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    ....or those 'devout Jews' status prior to Pentecost Acts 2?
     
    #9 kyredneck, Feb 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2014
  10. kyredneck

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    ....or Nathanael's status prior to Jn 1:47?
     
  11. kyredneck

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    ....and Abraham's status prior to Gen 15:6?

    ....or Cornelius's status prior to Acts 10?

    ....or those 'devout Jews' status prior to Pentecost Acts 2?

    ....or Nathanael's status prior to Jn 1:47?
     
  12. convicted1

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    ***Jeopardy theme music***
     
  13. Winman

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    Why don't you answer Willis? How could Cornelius be "devout" for years before he was saved and received the Holy Spirit? We know Cornelius must have been a good man for many years because he had a good reputation among all the Jews. So, he didn't suddenly start praying every day and giving alms to the poor, he had been doing it a long time.

    So, how could an unregenerate man do this if Calvinism is true?

    How could all the Jews in Jerusalem on Pentacost be called "devout men" by the Holy Spirit himself if unregenerate men are unable to do good?

    How could Nathanael be "an Israelite indeed in whom there is no guile" if unregenerate men are unable to do good?

    This was a great question, and now you Calvinists pull your head back into your shells. :rolleyes:

    It's got to be rough being a Calvinist seeing how probably half the Bible refutes it.
     
  14. kyredneck

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    Unregenerate man can't do this. That's the point.

    You, just like the Calvinists you seethe against, gom it all up with your abracadabra presto chango external means regeneration. You hold to a form of Christianity while denying the power of it.
     
  15. Winman

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    That is what you MUST assume isn't it? :laugh:

    Otherwise your whole system is PROVED to be a house of cards.

    So, you've got to argue that people without the indwelling Holy Spirit were regenerated, and yet Romans 8:9 says men without the indwelling Spirit are "in the flesh". What a gigantic predicament for the Calvinists.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    This verse implies if you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, then you are in the flesh. Yet thousands of people without the Holy Spirit believed on Jesus (John 7:39), and men like Cornelius were able to work "righeousness" for years before he received the Holy Spirit.

    The only other alternative is to believe that Total Inability is utterly false doctrine easily refuted by much scripture.

    No way you are going there though. Calvinism must be held to no matter how much scripture refutes it.
     
  16. kyredneck

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    Same ol', same ol'; you snatch and regurgitate anything that even remotely appears to dispute Sovereign Grace, with no concern whatsoever about harmony of scripture. That's all you do Winman in your sick crusade against God's Grace, pit scripture against scripture.

    It's obvious, indwelling is not the same event as born of the Spirit.
     
  17. Winman

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    It is you that has no concern for the harmony of scripture, you believe a direct contradiction, you believe persons without the indwelling Holy Spirit could be regenerated.

    And what you call pitting scripture against scripture is called "rightly dividing the word". Scripture cannot contradict itself EVER.

    Your problem is that you must cling to "Total Inability" when that is easily shown to be false. You yourself recognize that all these persons were able to do good long before the Holy Spirit was given out at Pentacost. We are directly shown this in scripture;

    Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    We are directly told the disciples believed on Jesus from the start of his ministry. But they did not receive the Holy Spirit until three and a half years later;

    Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    Scripture does not contradict itself, it is clearly shown men without the Holy Spirit have the ability to believe.

    Total Inability is completely false and refuted by much scripture. Plain and simple.
     
  18. psalms109:31

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    Deuteronomy 32:47
    They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess."

    Deuteronomy 30
    The Offer of Life or Death

    11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction

    Romans 10
    5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”(that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

    12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!

    Romans 4
    New International Version (NIV)
    Abraham Justified by Faith

    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    No one has life without His word Moses would still be dead in the dessert if it wasn't for the word of God through the burning bush.

    Regeneration before faith is ridiculous men can't do anything without the word of God for God.

    It is the sick that needs the medicine not the living and well. It is the word of God that has given us life and them life before the cross. I praise God for His word and those who bring it to those who need it. The living don't need it they already have life. People don't want to come to the realization that they were dead like the rest of us before His word the bread of life.
     
  19. kyredneck

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    Once again, it's obvious born from above is NOT the same as indwelling/baptism/filled with the Spirit. I know you're not hearing me because of your maniacal tunnel vision spewing hatred at God's Sovereign Grace. There's nothing new about 'born of the Spirit'/'born from above'.

    It's literally 'born from above', as in 'the Jerusalem that is above which is the mother of us all', referring to the children of the heavenly Zion as opposed to the earthly one.

    ....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8 YLT

    Are we to actually think Christ was implementing a brand new thing here?

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

    Or was He revealing a mystery from of old, something that had always been?

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

    John the Baptist filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, David made to hope while on his mother's breast, Isaac born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning, Paul separated from his mother's womb to preach Christ among the Gentiles.

    There's nothing 'new' about the Spirit blowing where He wills.

    It's totally contrary to the abracadabra presto chango external means regeneration that you and the Calvinists hold to.
     
    #19 kyredneck, Feb 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2014
  20. Winman

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    I agree with you that a man has to be born again. And how that occurs is explained precisely in John 1:12-13;

    Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    It is to those men who received Jesus and believed on his name that God gave the POWER to become sons of God.

    Man doesn't make himself born again, man simply receives Jesus as his Saviour and trusts on him to save him. Once a man does this, then it is God and God only who gives that man POWER to be born again. They are born again completely of God and completely of God's will, but God only grants this birth to those who submit to him and believe on his son Jesus.

    So again, scripture completely refutes Total Inability. This scripture shows men have the ability to believe on Jesus, and when they do God gives them the power to be born again.

    Plain as day.
     
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