Do all roads actually lead to heaven?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Soulman, Sep 3, 2006.

  1. Soulman

    Soulman
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    It seems lately that many believe there are christians choosing to stay in churches that clearly do not preach the gospel of Christ. I am not saying that in alot of protestant churches the gospel isn't being preached. I believe it is. I am saying that there are certain denominations that cross the line. If believed their followers will die and go to hell. Some churches may have error but the gospel is there. There are some that are so far off as to make salvation impossible within the borders of their teachings. I am talking about Catholicisim, Mormonisim, Jehovahs Witnesses, Hinduisim, Islam, Moonies, etc.If a person finds Christ on their own, I do not believe they can stay in one of these cults.

    So. Do you believe there are real christians in any of these cults?
     
  2. TaterTot

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    This is a hard question for me since my paternal side of the family is Mormon. My grandmother died a faithful Mormon. She was a good woman. I want to believe that she was just deceived and that God excused her for it. But I know the truth.

    My answer is no.
     
  3. Soulman

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    Tatertot,
    I am sorry about your Mom. I know it must have been and still is hard knowing someone you love is probably not in heaven. I didn't intend to bring up any bad memories. This isn't just debating. We are dealing with eternity. Our lives depend on getting this issue of salvation right.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Depends on who you say are "Christians".
    Are they "Christians" because they know it ?
    Are they "Christians" because they walk the talk, and talk the walk ?
    Are they "Christians" because they act it ?
    Are they "Christians" because they know the gospel and obey it ?
    Are they "Christians" because they call on the Name of Christ ?
    Or are they Christians because they belong to Christ by virtue of Christ's redemptive work and not because of their creed, theology, good works, and the usual things we like to base our judgments on.
     
  5. Soulman

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    They would be Christians if they have trusted in the shed blood of Christ and Him alone for the forgiveness of sins and the saving of the soul. They could not be Christians if they believe the false doctrines of the cults mentioned above. Their doctrine does not show the path to salvation.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    I will beg to differ here, friend. Because if their being "Christians" depends on their having trusted the blood of Christ and Him alone for the forgiveness of their sins and the saving of their soul, then pray tell me on what basis did God take Enoch or Elijah to heaven ?
    Enoch had no writing where we can safely conclude that he knew and trusted the shed blood fo Christ, and Elijah never spoke of Christ and His blood in the book of Kings.

    I am not denying that one is justified by the blood of Christ and that forgiveness of sins and the saving of one's soul is Christ's alone, but, the individual has nothing at all to do with his salvation. Those are facts, whether we know it or not, whether we acknowledge it or not, the same way that Jesus is Lord whether all men know it or not, whether all men acknowlege it or not, the same way that 'there is no other name given under heaven whereby man must be saved', whether all men know it or not, whether all men acknowledge it or not.

    Allow me to illustrate further.

    Suppose that there exists in our time today (as there existed during Paul's time and during Peter's time and during Jesus' time and before their time) unknown tribes in unknown places who worshipped the sun and looked to the sun as their god and savior, does that make Christ less the Lord to which they will be accountable to in the coming judgment, and does that make Christ less the Savior whose Name alone has been given whereby they must be saved ?

    Now evidently those kinds of people who existed before our time and during Christ's time and before His time on earth are not part of God's plan for the salvation of sinners because according to your logic they do not trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

    That being the case your doctrine therefore condemns the better part of humanity to hell, and makes salvation exclusive only to those who will know about the shed blood of Christ and trust in it, doesn't it ?

    And not only that, it ties the power of God to save sinners to the ability of the preacher to go and preach the gospel, and it pegs the result of the shed blood of Christ on the ability of fallen sinners to rise up to the occassion and respond favorably to the preaching of the gospel.

    And if somebody says no, but the ability of man comes from the Holy Spirit, then the power of the Holy Spirit to be everywhere is curtailed by the ability of preaching man to go anywhere.

    So you see, soulman, while the sinner's sins are washed away by the blood of Christ and while the finished work of Christ alone is sufficient for the sinner's pardon, these facts are in no way conditional to man's salvation. They are absolutely essential, but they are not in anyway conditional.

    Christ came to save His own, and whether or not His own knows Him is absolutely irrelevant to what He came to do, and succeeded in doing, because He was not saving them for their sakes, He saved them because it was the Father's will and He came to do the Father's will.

    His own were and are everywhere, in every tongue, nation, and age, including the ages before His time here on earth. Take a close look at this verse:

    All nations will not be all nations if the only nations where God had His people were those nations that had people who trusted in His blood and in His work, because prior to the church age there were no nation, except the Jewish nation, who knew about Christ.

    Christians are Christians because they were redeemed, bought, and justified by the blood of Christ, and therefore belong to Christ, not because of their creed, theology, or tongue.
     
  7. HankD

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    1 John 5
    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    Pretty simple formula.

    But then the Word of God follows up this statement above with the summary statement:

    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


    HankD​
     
  8. Scarlett O.

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    I understand that God deemed many people as being "righteous" in the Old Testament.

    But Jesus Christ "called" people. Face to face. "Follow Me". Some did, like Peter and the woman at the well. And some did not, such and the rich young ruler and all of those who left Him after He began saying, "you must eat of my body".

    After His death, burial, and resurrection, He still calls people. Just not physically face to face. He came to Paul as a "light". Who knows all of the different methods Christ uses to "call" people to repentance?

    Jesus offers the gift of eternal life. His offer requires a response. Acceptance.

    "Follow Me"....that requires that you must follow.

    "Drink from the Living Water and never thirst again."....that requires an acceptance.

    "Why are you persecuting Me?"....that requires an answer.

    "....I came to call sinners to repentance."....that requires an action - repent.

    And as I said, He still calls people, personally, to this day.

    There is nothing that man can do to initiate salvation for himself. Salvation comes from God's grace.

    But once Christ has made the offer of the free gift - it must be accepted.

    You can't earn you way to being a member of the "elect". God knew who would accept His Son as their Savior before He created the universe and from the beginning those people are called the "elect". But by the same token, you can't spit in God's face and say, "I don't need You" and then go to Heaven anyway because some supernatural and random "lottery" was held and automatically put you on the "elect" list regardless of your response to Christ's offering.
     
    #8 Scarlett O., Sep 3, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2006
  9. El_Guero

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    My answer - No
     
  10. gb93433

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    I knew a lady who became a Christian as a Mormon at BYU by listening in class and reading the Bible for herself. She began to ask questions and discuss her questions with her family and was basically written off. She left BYU at the end of the year to go to a secular college and be a part of the Navigators.
     
  11. Marcia

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    I think there are saved Catholics but not anyone saved in the others you mention. As much as I disagree with Catholicism, I would not put it in the same category as the others. The others all deny the biblical God and Jesus. Rev. Moon says he is the Messiah. If anyone in these groups becomes a believer, I think in most cases they would leave the group.

    Are you asking if anyone gets saved by the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, or Rev. Moon? My answer to that is no.
     
  12. Marcia

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    But Enoch and Elijah believed in the revealed, living, true God. They had no way of knowing of believing in Jesus and were not given that specific revelation. Abraham believed (in God) and it was counted to him as righteousness.

    So are you an inclusivist or a universalist?


    Yep. They are worshiping a false god. God was pretty mad at people who worshipped false gods.


    It's what Jesus said in Jn 14.6. Salvation is exclusive - it is only through Jesus Christ. If God wants someone saved, then they will get the revelation of Christ in some kind of way.

    So if everyone is saved, why preach anything? Should I go back to being a New Ager and an astrologer?
     
  13. canadyjd

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    I Cor. 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

    This is God's plan, pinoybaptist. The preaching of the Gospel brings salvation to God's chosen people. And yes, it makes salvation exclusive only to those who hear about Jesus and are convicted of the truth about who He is and what He did, and who respond in repentance and faith through the work of Holy Spirit.

    And as for as the word "nation"; in the 1st century the word did not carry the same meaning as it does today. It didn't refer to a geographical area as much as it refered to a particular "tribe" or "people" which may or may not be in one particular area.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. Charles Meadows

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    Your whole question seems to be rooted in misunderstanding. "Roads" do not lead to heaven - Jesus does. A person's denomination does not determine exactly what his/her beliefs are.

    And why do you even ask such a question? First of all I agree with Marcia that the RCC does not belong in such a group. Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity - albeit a warped one - along the lines of liberal Protestant groups.

    The others are frankly non-Christian. How could anyone who rejects that Jesus is Lord get to heaven? Just what responses do you expect to get here?
     
  15. LeBuick

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    I agree, there is only one road and it's described as the strait and narrow and the sign says JESUS way... (I am the way, the truth and the life...)
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    "All roads lead up the mountain" - not!
    All the roads leading up the mountain also
    lead DOWN the mountain. And there are several
    roads that go in circles around the mountain.
    All roads do NOT lead up the mountain :(
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Hi, Marcia.
    You said:

    True. But the OP was talking about trusting in the shed blood of Christ, not knowing the true living God. Also, if Enoch and Elijah believed in the true living God, then they would have also followed the same line of thinking that the Hebrew addressees of the Book of Hebrews came to, which prompted the writer of that letter to write why Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, and that is to shed blood. Since God is a Spirit, then God cannot shed blood.

    I don't even know what those terms mean.
    But if universalist means do I believe that all men are redeemed, the answer is 'no'.
    I am an electionist, if you will.
    I believe that God in eternity past and before the foundation of the world elected a definite number of persons in Christ unto (eternal) salvation, and that their election had nothing at all to do with their affiliations here in time, but, solely on the sovereign mercy of God, and that the Triune God covenanted with Himself and Himself only to redeem all these elect in Christ through Christ here in time.

    Therefore, they were justified before God by the shed blood of Christ, and their knowing about it and accepting it as truth in no way affects their eternal destiny, because their justification does not depend on their assent or knowledge.

    Knowledge comes with teaching, and that is where gospel preaching comes in.

    Paul always taught those he had written too, about the hows, whys, and wherefore of a salvation they already possessed. He always endeavored to bring those he comes into contact to with an understanding of things spiritual, and of who they are, who God is, who Christ is, and how they ought to apply their knowlege.

    At this point in time, after the cross, I believe that all who needed to be redeemed have been redeemed already. It is no longer a question of IF.
    And that is the problem with most doctrines and gospel preachings today, they make the mission of Christ, to save those whom the Father gave Him, a future event, based on the knowledge, assent, and application of knowledge of those whom they preach to.

    What God is doing now is regenerating His people, and He needs no means to do that, nor any person to do that.

    Again, I am not saying that everyone, as in all mankind, is saved. That is not only heretical, but outright diabolical, doctrine.

    I am saying that everyone for whom salvation has been authored already has that salvation, and everyone for whom spiritual regeneration has been intended will in God's own due time and God's own way receive such regeneration.

    Now, you don't have to go back to your past life, because the preaching of truth and of the gospel is intended to bring as many of those for whom eternal life has been authored to knowledge of truth and to bring life and immortality, which they already possess, to light.

    As many, because we cannot be everywhere at the same time like God.

    However, again, the eternal salvation of those whom God elected does not depend on us and of the knowledge that we impart.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    God's plan is to save and redeem His people by He Himself taking on the form of man in the person of Jesus Christ and going up the cross to receive the punishment that was justly theirs.
    The preaching of the gospel is not part of that plan for their eternal benefit, it is part of the plan for their timely benefit, wherever the gospel is preached by man.
    We were not saved and redeemed for this world, we were saved and redeemed for the world to come.
    But the problem is whenever we see the word salvation, we apply it only to the eternal destiny of the soul.
    We fail to understand that many times also, when the word salvation is used it may also refer to physical salvation, or salvation from distresses, or salvation from wrong doctrines.

    The Scripture you cited talks of the world not knowing God. In the Roman world they worshipped false gods, in the Jewish world they did not know God in the sense of knowing the depths of His mercy and compassion, and so required law instead of mercy from the Jewish people.

    And those who believed the preaching of the cross, who received Christ as the Messiah, were saved from such foolish and erroneous teachings thru the preaching of the cross.


    I fail to see where this word has really changed.

    Up here in Western New York, they have a nation of American Indians called the Seneca Nation, this nation is composed of different tribes of American Indians from different geographical areas, and all are part of the American Nation which means the American people who may or may not be in the geographical USA.

    I come from the Filipino nation is no different from my meaning that I belong to the Filipino people whether or not I am in my country's geographical area.

    The Polish nation and the Polish people are one and the same whether or not they are in one geographical area.
     
  19. canadyjd

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    I understand what you are saying. My one question to you is this:

    Is faith in Jesus Christ (prior to death) necessary for eternal salvation? You seem to be saying that it is not. Is that what you mean?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    For one's eternal salvation ? no.
    If it is, then we need to lump together as absolutely hopeless and without salvation the infants who die in the womb, the infants who are killed in or out of the womb, and the babies who are unable to exercise any "saving" faith.

    And then we throw along with them all the imbeciles of this world, and those who for geographical or cultural reasons, products of a sin-laden and sin-fallen world, preachers of the gospel are unable to reach.

    And since God requires perfect faith, being perfect Himself, the only perfect faith that can please God is that of Christ's, which is why Jesus Christ only is called faith-ful and true.

    The King James Version had it right from the beginning.

    Unfortunately, the modern translation took away the "faith of Jesus Christ" and changed it to faith in Jesus Christ.

    Now, I hope we don't derail this thread by going that direction.

    As for timely salvation which by and large pertains to salvation from unscriptural practices, false gods, and erroneous doctrines, we need to put our faith in the person of Jesus Christ: who He is, His holiness, His perfection and perfect work, etc.

    And one way this can happen is by hearing, and instruction through,the gospel, thus Paul says: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If you read Romans 9 and 10 you will see that Paul is speaking in this wise with regards to those among national Israel who belong to the true Israel (the true elects of God).

    I have yet to find a Scripture where it can be undeniably and unarguably said that human faith is essential to eternal salvation.
     
    #20 pinoybaptist, Sep 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2006

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