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Featured Do babies go to heaven?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by awaken, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Where does it say elect infants?
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    james 1:14-15 gives the unmistakeable chronological precise order leading to spiritual death. Not one states "created that way".
     
  3. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Some more thoughts...
    Paul said, "when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died" (Romans 7:9). Some people argue that he probably meant, "When the commandments in the Law of Moses were given, sin sprang to life and mankind died spiritually." However, the problem with this argument is that the time of Moses is not when sin sprang up and mankind became spiritually dead. Notice that before Paul wrote Romans 7:9, he had already explained that sin sprang up at the time of Adam:

    Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--"
    Romans 5:13: "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
    Romans 5:14: "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."

    So when people argue that sin sprang to life when Moses brought the commandments to the Israelites, this argument creates a contradiction in Scripture. Either sin originally sprang to life in Adam's time, or else sin originally sprang to life in Moses' time. We can't have it both ways.
     
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Interesting!:)
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
    ._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
    ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

    This is from the confession of faith.....1689 confession of faith.

    Where does it say or speak specifically about infants who die....other than David saying he also would go to be with His child who died?
    David did not specify what he meant other than he would go into the realm of the unseen dead.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This also is incorrect...james one speaks of sin...committed by a sinner...it gives the anatomy of a sin.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    A spiritually dead creation becomes a spiritually dead sinner? Of course it is breaking down a sin, similar to what Eve did...which lead to her death spiritually. Sin leads to death...death doesn't lead to sin.
     
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    You are losing me on your post. Are you saying that infants that die go to heaven or not? Are you saying some go to heaven and some do not?
     
  9. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    The reason why that argument of sin coming to life with Adam or Moses..it creates a contradiction in Scripture because it tries to interpret Paul's statement in Romans 7:9 ("when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died") as being a general statement about mankind rather than a personal statement about Paul. But notice the immediate context of Paul's statement. In Romans 7:7-8 Paul said that he learned what coveting is through the Law, and that this produced every kind of covetous desire in him. Paul was speaking of himself personally, and notice that he continued to speak of himself when he said that he died:

    Romans 7:7: "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet.""
    Romans 7:8: "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead."
    Romans 7:9: "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died."
    Romans 7:10: "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death."
    Romans 7:11: "For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death."
    Romans 7:12: "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."
    Romans 7:13: "Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."
    Romans 7:14: "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."
    Romans 7:15: "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."
    Romans 7:16: "And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good."
    Romans 7:17: "As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me."
    Romans 7:18: "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."
    Romans 7:19: "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing."
    Romans 7:20: "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
    Romans 7:21: "So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me."
    Romans 7:22: "For in my inner being I delight in God's law;"
    Romans 7:23: "but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members."
    Romans 7:24: "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"
    Romans 7:25: "Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

    Notice that the immediate context both before and after Romans 7:9 is all about Paul himself. It's not about sin springing to life in Moses' time, but instead it describes the fact that sin springs to life within the individual person. Paul's example demonstrates that we were all alive in some sense as children until sin sprang to life within us through an awareness or understanding of sin. At that point we died (not physically, but spiritually). Consider that if we died spiritually at some point in our lives, then we must have been alive spiritually before then (as infants and young children).
     
  10. HisWitness

    HisWitness New Member

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    how can babies have a work of redemption done in their hearts by the holy spirit bringing them to salvation--they cant talk-dont know the language,dont know good from evil-doesnt have the mental faculties to discern anything--so either all babies goes to heaven or they all go to hell--
    there MUST be REPENTENCE and FAITH for SALVATION and babies cant have it.:)
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What does the confession state?


    No....the confession speaks correctly saying .....
    ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY....... it does not say infants who die

    Do you understand the biblical teaching about election???

    Those who wrote the confession of faith very wisely answer the question by leaving it to the righteous judgement of God.

    God might save:

    All infants who die

    all infants of believers

    Some infants of all

    or no infants at all......God has not told us,

    So the godly men who wrote the confession, understanding the Covenant of grace, know that no one who God has not elected will be in heaven, not one non elect person...who would be outside of the Covenant of redemption...will ever be saved.

    So the correct answer for infants, handicapped persons, or anyone else..is that All the Father gives to the Son, he dies for them...and they all will be saved.

    All persons are conceived in sin and guilty...so any who are saved are saved by mercy.
     
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So do you believe that when we reach an age to know right from wrong...this is the age of accountability?
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    WD,
    Eve fits the bill perfectly and is often used to illustrate what james teaches.

    All others since Adams fall are not a blank slate, but have been conceived in sin...i know we do not agree here, but for the sake of new persons...I set forth our difference on this.

    We sinned in Adam.We sin by experience...because we are sinners.
     
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  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Well, I do not believe the way you do! Jesus died for the world...He will save the "whosoever" that believe in Him!
     
  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Here's another example. Notice that we were all dead in our sins before we received salvation:
    Ephesians 2:1-2: "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
    Ephesians 2:2: "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient."

    Colossians 2:13: "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ."

    So we were all dead in our sins before we accepted Christ as our Savior. Consider that an inanimate object such as a rock can never be dead because it was never alive in the first place. So if we were spiritually dead in our sins, the implication is that we must have been spiritually alive before we died. This supports the idea that babies and young children will go to heaven if they die before they reach an "age of accountability," because they are spiritually alive before sin springs to life within them.

    In a similar way, Adam and Eve were spiritually alive before the Fall:
    Genesis 2:15: "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."
    Genesis 2:16: "And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;"
    Genesis 2:17: "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.""

    According to this passage, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they died. They did not die physically, because they lived for several hundred years and had a number of children after they ate the fruit. Instead, they died spiritually, just as Paul said that he died spiritually when sin sprang to life within him (Romans 7:9 ). Since Adam and Eve died spiritually at that point (when sin sprang to life within them), this means that they were spiritually alive before they ate the fruit.

    All of these examples demonstrate that people are spiritually alive (as infants and young children) until sin springs to life within them, causing them to die spiritually.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I believe that also awaken....

    I also believe;
    2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    So...the everyone believing in Jn 3....are the elect.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
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  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The problem with that is James states "each one of us". That sequence is the means for sin and death for each of us, not just Eve.
     
  18. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    Ok, then why does the scriptures say that in Adam all die? The law of biogenesis refutes your supposition that no one is born in sin. That same law assures our salvation once we are in Christ, as, positionally, we can not sin. 1 John 3:9
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    Also, David refutes your assertion: Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
    5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    I guess pelagianism is alive and well on this thread.
     
    #38 Bronconagurski, Sep 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2012
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


    WD...i think this is speaking of every day regular sin...vs 16 speaks of beloved brethren
     
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  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Psalms 51:5: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
    The above verse doesn't say, "Surely I was born spiritually dead," so you are making an assumption that this verse means that infants are born spiritually dead. The problem with this argument is that sin and spiritual death are two different things. Remember, every Christian is spiritually alive, yet every Christian commits sins due to the sin nature which we inherited from Adam,
     
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