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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 7, 2011.
If yes, what is the basis for it in both systems?
I've been both a Calvanist and an Arminian, and in each I have believe in some kind of the doctrine of election.
As a Calvinist I believed that God chose a people, and drawed or forced them into becoming a christion.
As an arminian, I believed that there was a general call to sonship or election, and if you accepted the call you were then one of the elect.
The basis is that God chose whom He so desired to be saved.
How different groups see His 'choosing' is a different matter.
for the most part yes. The difference is over the condition of the election. Arminians would say that God chose to save those that he knew would believe. thus election conditioned on belief in the believer. Calvinists say that God choose people not based on anything in the believer including faith.
drawn and forced are not the same thing.
One teaches God chooses believers...the other God chooses to become believers.
To be fair, not all of us would describe it in this manner. I have to be honest. This explanation is one of the reason's I became a Calvinist back in the day. The idea that God simply foresees who will believe and then elects them is really pretty silly, and I honestly don't think that was ever the biblical author's intent.
I see why people so quickly dismiss Arminianism if they think this is what we all teach and believe about divine election.
what is being said here is that many non arms see it as being that God bases His grace/election upon the free will acceptance He foresees arms doing for Christ, THAT decision is what causes the person to become a Christian, adopted by God, put into Body of Christ etc
Cals see it based upon God divine Will and purpose to call out/elect individuals based upon nothing other than His own good and pleasing Will!
Not quite. Christ is God's Elect. He has decreed from before the world was created that faith in His Elect is needed for salvation, not having anything to do with looking into the future or contingent on man devising a plan to save himself.
If you "see" it this way...then the flipside must be equally true. It is God's divine will and purpose to damn individuals based upon nothing other than His own good and pleasing will. There is no way around such inconsistency. If everything is "all God", that includes reprobation.
Actually, Gods Will is specific towards His elect chosen ones, they will become saved
Gods will is permissive general towards those who are lost... permits/allows them to continue on where their very natures deeds acts desires lead them anyways...
In all honesty, this is faulty reasoning. Salvation being monergistic and reprobation being synergistic defies logic.
Not IF God is seen as having dual Wills in His very nature...
He loves all people, but he has chosen to extend grace and mercy upon those He wills to love in a personal"faith based" sense, while remainder left to their normal desires...
He decrees to elect and save His own, determinitive Will/direct caused
he permits/allows the rest of humanity to go where their natural wills and desires will take them ....
Where is the scripture that says all of this?
God had decided to save/elect/preserve during time of Jesus a "faithful" remnant among the jewish peoples to be saved, and 3,000 of them were added into Body of Christ at Pentacost...
God had preserved a "faithful" remnant during time of prophet Elijah
God has His "faith remanant" of 144,000 Jews to be elected/chosen out from among national Isreal during the Great Tribulation...
God selected Abram from among the heathen, to establish a nation through him, and to bring his seed, Jesus, to earth eventually through...
that concept is found throughout the Bible!
That contradicts determinism.
That contradicts love.
That contradicts Scripture.
Bible does not teach though that God "directly" causes ALL things that happened, as fall of Lucifer and Adam were permitted by God, based on them allowed "free will" to sin against God...
God is love, sent His Son to die in order that SOME might be saved, instead of ALL being lost, how is that not LOVE?
God allowing sinners to go their own way is not Biblical?
Read Revelation , at the end, God describes people going worse and worse, and he is permitting them to do 'all the way" bad!
God also "permitted" sinners like you and me to nail on the Cross his Son, how is that NOT allowing sinners go "do their own thing?"
I know about Pentacost, I know about the 144,000, I know about the 7000 who did not bend the knee to image of Baal, but where do the scriptures say God has a dual will? Where do the scriptures says God chooses to extend grace to his people in a "personal way" and leave the rest to their desires?
I don't want to see a concept, I would like to see actual scripture that says that God has a dual will and extends his grace to only some men and passes by the rest. Where is the scripture for this?
guess have to ask the Apostle paul, something about God having mercy/grace on whom He wills, while rest are hardened?
or jesus stating plainly that ALL those the father gave Him, he will raise up on last day, the Apostles were drawn to jesus by act of God choosing them to come, "you did not choose me, but I chose you"////
Father draws/calls, Jesus saves, HS brings quickening/conviction enabling those called by God to receive jesus Christ...
I don't want to ask Paul, I'm asking you. You say these things are true, where is the scripture that supports your views?
I really wanted to see scripture. Do you have scripture that actually says God has a dual will, and do you have scripture that says God chooses to show grace to his people and leaves the rest to their desires?
Dual wills - the first thing i see after coming back to the BB and its this - i applaud your response to this webdog tho if yer the one i remember we'll be back to shortly disagreeing again ;p
The Lord our God is one - the whole concept of oneness and unity screams throughout the Bible
However to stay on topic
The answer is No
- a pure arminian would never accept election
- and a pure calvinist would never accept free choice
however most of us arent pure - I lean more towards the Arminian since God does not damn us - we do that ourselves - and the average Calvinist wont admit that their belief demands that God create and author sin
to put it simply the average Calvinist believes all men has fallen and that we are born with sin - its really close and as i say if your going to be wrong - be a Calvinist its far far safer then being wrong and an Arminian but i never was one to take my own advice
an Arminian if you can nail them down and they admit to man being evil - which a purist arminian wont - but to a corrupt arminian like myself we are born perfect but under a curse - and the curse works upon our will causing us to damn and corrupt ourselves pretty soon after we're born - the whole age of innocence thing
I am not an Arminian, and I believe man is evil, but I do not believe that means everything man does is evil. I believe the scriptures show you only have to fail one point of the law to be evil.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
All you have to do is sin one time in your entire lifetime and you are guilty of breaking all of the law. We all sin, and are therefore evil, but the scriptures do not show that every single thing man does is evil. Jesus said we can give good gifts to our children.
I agree with you here. Because of the knowledge of good and evil, man is tempted beyond his strength to resist and soon sins. I also believe a child is not accountable until they can understand right from wrong.