Do Cals Deny "by grace through faith"

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 12strings, Aug 22, 2012.

?

Do Calvinists deny Salvation "by grace through faith"?

  1. I am calvinistic, and I believe cals AFFIRM salvation by grace through faith

    48.3%
  2. I am calvinistic, and I admit that us cal deny salvation by grace through faith

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. I am a non-cal, but I don't think cals deny salvation by grace through faith

    20.7%
  4. I am a non-cal, and I DO think calvinists deny salvation by grace through faith.

    31.0%
  1. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Simple question based on an accusation of calvinists in another thread...

    Do those who hold to a Calvinistic view of Election, by very virtue of holding that belief...DENY that we are saved "by grace through faith"...since we believe that the faith needed for salvation is itself a gift from God?

    I'm especially interested to hear from the non-cals about what they think about this question.

    Please keep in mind that this would include saying Martin Luther (yeah, that "Justification by faith alone" guy) himself denies salvation by grace through faith?
     
    #1 12strings, Aug 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2012
  2. humblethinker

    humblethinker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    0
    "since we believe that the faith needed for salvation is itself a gift from God? "
    That right there is what I have a problem with. I believe that the verse you are referring to specifically indicates that salvation is the gift.
     
  3. humblethinker

    humblethinker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    0
    I also have a hard time identifying arbitrarily electing souls to eternal life as really an act of grace... unless He were to have elected all souls, or at least given all accountable souls the freedom to choose Him.

    If He was not arbitrary or a respecter of persons, then what kind of justice did he base His election of particular individuals on?

    I'm having a hard time seeing the grace here...
     
  4. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Martin Luther did not deny salvation by grace through faith.

    He held to justification by faith alone to distinguish from the Catholics whom he left, who believed in faith plus works.

    The language is precise in the scripture It's not salvation by grace and faith. It's salvation by grace THROUGH faith. There's a difference.

    It's by grace alone through faith alone.

    The cry of the Reformation was Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Dei Gloria.
     
  5. RLBosley

    RLBosley
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    I chose option 4 "I am a non-cal, and I DO think calvinists deny salvation by grace through faith." HOWEVER i feel I must explain:

    I debated on how to answer, or even if I should answer because from what I've seen there are soooooooo many versions of Calvinism that trying to blanket them all with one statement really doesn't work. For example; my brother-in-law is a cal and when we met he was a firm 5 pointer (TULIP). In the past year he has changed to wavering between 3 and 4 points (TUP and TUIP respectively. So he's making progress :thumbs:). So to say that all deny grace through faith is obviously wrong. But I think there is a unhealthy number that do, if not explicitly, then implicitly, despite the Solas.
     
  6. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    The idea is not what various Calvinists belief, for as RL said, they are all over the map. So the issue is what does 5 point Calvinism teach. And it teaches we are saved by grace and given faith. We cannot seek God nor trust in Christ unless we are regenerated. Thus Calvinism teaches we are chosen by grace alone, then regenerated by irresistible grace along, then given the faith of Christ alone, then saved by grace alone. Thus saved by grace alone replaces saved by grace through faith. This is not rocket science.

    However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen through faith in the truth, thus our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2.

    Through faith means we gain access to saving grace when God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5/24.
     
  7. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wonder if Christ came to this world to die in vain? Does God worry and fret on men not repenting?Is God too powerless to do anything but sit on his throne and hope that men will come to him?does God say to men that he hopes they believe him? what kind of God is this with this kind of a view??????Hes NOT the GOD of the BIBLE:)

    The view that men call Calvinist at least holds the view that GOD is ALL powerful and HE does have POWER over the CLAY to do whatever he wills
    Can the creation say to the CREATOR why have you made me this way?
    So if GOD is willing to show his power in a way which some men refuses to believe--then it still doesnt change the fact GOD is still GOD and this view is the REAL GOD of the bible :)
     
  8. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    just because men goes about to establish their own righteousness with the doctrine of WORKS that they may boast of theirselves and get the glory

    it is not so with them who is establising the Righteousness of CHRIST with the doctrine of GRACE that GOD may get all the GLORY and HONOR :)
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,918
    Likes Received:
    95
    AMEN :thumbs:
     
  10. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's not YOUR faith- that's where the problem lies.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    We have NO inherit faith in our natures, as we are born spiritual dead to spiritual things, as born in a state seperated from god, and unable to make our way back unless he brings us back!

    Again, NO true holder of cal would say grace alone, for the basis of salvation is provided by the Cross, grace, but it is thru faith that God effectual apllies that grace unto us!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    Again, ALL of us deserve eternal seperation from god, and God is the one working all things out, so dies man have a better way to do it than the Creator?
     
  13. Havensdad

    Havensdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    How do you know which verse he is talking about? Maybe he is talking about this one:

    Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

    Or this one...

    2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

    Or maybe he was going "Old School"....

    Why did the Israelites not have faith?

    Deu 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

    But God would fix that!

    Deu 30:6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.


    The scripture is FILLED with the Sovereign election of God....
     
  14. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0

    1. Election is grounded in God's moral character (i.e., goodness, compassion, empathy, integrity, non-duplicity, non-favoritism, justice, etc.)


    2. God does have "causes and reasons" for His choices, though these are "internal" to God (i.e., not found in the creature). We know He is good and therefore can trust that He would make a better choice than we would.



    3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed, we cannot try to figure them out but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.



    4. Salvation is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of His choosing us. NONE of His decrees were done except justly and wisely.


    (from http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/foreseenfaith.html)

    Also see: http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5386


    The amazing thing is not that there is not grace FOR all, but that there is grace AT all!
     
    #14 Mexdeaf, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  15. Havensdad

    Havensdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    By the way, isn't this in the wrong area of the board?
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47

    Also amazing that we of the ole limited minds and limited in all other ways think that we can proscribe how God ought to do things!
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,918
    Likes Received:
    95
    Amen! And for that brothers, we should be thankful.
    :godisgood:
     
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    double post
     
    #18 Winman, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  19. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, triple post!
     
    #19 Winman, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  20. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is difficult to answer properly.

    Calvinists believe they receive faith by grace.

    Grace ----> Faith

    Non-Cals believe they receive or have access into grace through faith.

    Faith ----> Grace

    That said, no non-Cal believes they can believe without the grace of God. But it is different from the Cal view.

    The Calvinist believes that man does not have the ability to believe in Christ. A man must be supernaturally regenerated before he has this ability. This regeneration causes or imposes a man to believe.

    The non-Cal does not believe a man must be supernaturally regenerated to believe. That said, no man can believe what he does not know. So while a non-Cal believes man has the ability to believe, a man is still dependent on God's revelation and conviction through the word of God or preaching, which God "graciously" provides. This revelation and conviction does not cause him to believe in that it is imposed on the man, but it enables him to believe if he so chooses. That is a very subtle, but important distinction.

    So, I would say a Calvinist believes he is saved by faith through grace.

    The difference is ABILITY. Calvinists believe unregenerate man has no ability to believe (in Christ), non-Cals believe unregenerate man does have the ability to believe.
     

Share This Page

Loading...