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Do Calvinists believe children go to Hell?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Cutter, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    IBaker : You are peddling the same old lies that others here have claimed ( without an iota of evidence ) that Calvin has said . Stick with historical facts .
     
  2. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    That quote, BTW, is attributed to at least three different people: Isaac Watts, Richard Baxter, and Jonathan Edwards. There is no primary source for it in any of those men's writings (or anywhere else, for that matter) so it is most likely spurious. A historical urban legend, you might say, and like all urban legends, it seems to have a life of its own and is very difficult to get rid of.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Besides that, it's just a dumb quote. Who cares if someone actually said it. It's wrong.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    TC, I have serached in vain to find a primary source for that quote from Edwards.
     
  5. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    I've heard that quote ascribed to John Knox. But I've never seen it substantiated.
     
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. So is Ibaker going to tell us where he got his quote from.

    2. Since this is a debate, we need to properly document our source (s).
     
  7. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    We need Ibaker to clear this up, then.
     
  8. lbaker

    lbaker New Member

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    The first time I saw it was in a Western Civ. college textbook. I think the book is in a bookshelf at home somewhere. I'll try to remember to check it when I get home and see if has a reference for the quote.

    Les
     
  9. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Check if you like, but it's probably not necessary. You are absolutely right that it is quoted in textbooks, etc. and attributed to Edwards, so it's through no fault of your own that you quoted it and attributed it to him.

    But no one ever references the work of Edwards himself from which this quote comes. If the quote is footnoted, it'll be a footnote for another book that attributes the quote to Edwards, but never to Edwards' work itself.

    We have much of the writing Jonathan Edwards did, so if he wrote it there should be a primary source for it. I once searched for it at CCEL, which has his works online, and found nothing.

    That it's attributed to so many different people makes is suspicious, too.
     
    #69 russell55, Sep 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2007
  10. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    If Edwards had said that, it would be quoted in every anticalvinist book that has been written since that time.

    As an Arminian, let me comment on the "Burn, Baby, Burn" controversy. Robert Burns (pun acknowledged) alleged in a poem that Scottish preachers preached that there are babies in Hell, and I've heard that some of the historic hypercalvinists of the 18th century may have taught it. If either or both are true, they are irrelevant; it has never been generally accepted by Calvinist thinkers.

    There's nothing wrong with supposing that only elect babies die before the age of accountability. There are some things about Calvinism that gag noncalvinist Christians, but the idea that your kid went to Hell is actually more than even most Calvinists can reconcile with their concept of God.

    But, regarding the fact that God hasn't spoken to this question directly, I might point out that we have no knowledge of "how" one appears before God after death. Maybe the deceased Calvinist baby stands as a full-grown adult with all of his rebellion and sin intact. If he burns eternally, that wouldn't mean that he burns as a baby.

    You could solve these problems by just becoming Arminian, but I realize that that's asking a lot.
     
  11. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    But that wouldn't solve the problem. It would just hide it.........temporarily. :)
     
  12. lbaker

    lbaker New Member

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    Just for the record, I found the Edwards quote last night. It was in an American History textbook, The American Pageant, on page 94. There wasn't any footnote or anything for it.

    Les
     
  13. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    School textbooks are notoriously sloppy and inaccurate many times, especially history textbooks.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The unsaved children, yes. Only faith in Christ saves a person. To say otherwise is to preach another gospel, and we know the Apostle's judgment of those who preach another gospel.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    oops! double post.
     
  16. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    Rather than incriminate The American Pageant with guilt-by-association, it would be better to see the actual quotation in context and then try to weigh its reliability. Just what did the book say, and what is the context where those words appear?

    (I will admit that I doubt the book says anything compelling, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.)
     
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    So only children who have faith in Christ will avoid hell? Do you believe that all infants go to hell since they cannot have faith in Christ?
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Of course. Is there another way?

    What I believe about the eternal state of infants is irrelevant. I know what the Gospel is, and we greatly err to hold to another one for the sake of good feelings. Besides, where is it written that infants cannot have faith?
     
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    This question (in the OP) has been asked so many times, that I lost count after 20. :)

    What has never been asked that I know of is this..

    Do free-willers believe that God overpowers the babies soul making them a new born-born-again elect of God (not believer for they have not the mind to believe) and brings them to Heaven, if a early death happens, even before the baby can think on its own in order that they may take Christ or reject Him?

    If so, is this not Gods power of election?
     
  20. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Great post...and right on the money.
     
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