Do Calvinists support Apostolic Authority?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 6, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    Why does the Bible teach the Sovereign election and effectual calling of the Apostles?

    The Apostles were men inspired by the Spirit, but we must understand that all of the people during that time did not know that to be the case. How would they know these men were writing down the truths of God? They wouldn't know that. Therefore, they had to spend some time convincing their audiences of their crediablity by informing them of the unique and divine way in which God had appointed them, right?

    Look at Galatians chapter 1 for example. Paul begins in verse one by pointing out that he is "an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father..." in verse 11 he goes on to prove his crediability by writing, "[the gospel I preached] I did not receive from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ...[I was a Jew set on persecuting the church]...but when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach..."

    Did God do this for me too? No, I did receive my teachings from man, Paul did not. And faith is required of me to receive the benefits of salvation. Was the same faith required of Paul, what about ol' doubting Thomas? No, they saw the the revelation of Christ in person.

    Was I also "set aside from birth" as was Paul? If so, then I must have the same credentials that the apostle Paul had! If my testimony is no different than Pauls, and Paul uses his testimony to validate his apostolic authority, then it only makes logical sense that I too would have apostolic authority as well. Why would Paul set himself apart by referring to his unique salvation experience as being a Sovereign act if everyone's salvation experience is a Sovereign act of God? What would set him apart as being authoratative?

    If Calvinism is true then anyone from the church of Galatia could say, "God divinely appointed me too Paul and I disagree with your teachings, you are no different than the rest of us believers for we all were set apart from birth and Sovereignly called by the Father. What makes you any more authorative than us?"

    It is a contradiction to believe in Apostolic Authority and to also teach that all other believers are Sovereignly appointed in the same way the apostles were. It removes the uniquness of their calling thus undermining their crediablity, much like teaching that we are all born of a virgin would undermine Christ's crediablity as being the Son of God.

    How do Calvinist's support Apostolic Authority?

    With Respect,
    Bro. Bill
     
  2. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi Brother Bill;
    This is a good one I encourage you to keep up the Faith
    May God Bless
    Romanbear
     
  3. sturgman

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    Yes Calvinist support Apolistic authority, and no, I do not think Paul agrees with you. Nor have you proventhat he does. Your arrogance of your opinion does not prove you to be correct. Nor when you say, "I believe this is only true for this group" does not prove your case, but does only one thing, it tells us what "you believe". Please do not be offended that I don't change my entire theology based on that.

    sturgman
     
  4. William C

    William C
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    Sturgman, you didn't address my arguement. You're worse than those Arminians your always making fun of on this post. You assume that I'm arrogant because I confindently present my beliefs? Is that not the pot calling the kettle black! I could say that your arrogance is what keeps you from seeing any other perspective as being valid. Let's not get personal, lets deal with the arguement.

    Bro. Bill
     
  5. npetreley

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    Why do you think your argument is worth addressing simply because you have an opinion? You've shown us something that is self-evident and never needed any proof. Yes, Jesus spoke to the people who were right there in front of Him, and the NT letters were written to NT readers.

    Now show us from scripture somewhere that the writers specifically said that predestination applied only to the apostolic times, and that the methodology of election would change after that, and perhaps someone will take your argument seriously.

    As I said in one of the other threads, I could just as easily post an argument that Jesus was a time-traveller, or that the Bible teaches reincarnation, and I'm already certain I can back those bizarre opinions with the same quality of scriptural support as you have supplied. (I'm certain because I've seen people do this.) But it is my sincere hope that nobody here would take these arguments seriously just because I could toss out an opinion and a few harmonizing scriptures and accuse people of failing to refute the premise.

    In a word, get real. (Okay, that's two words.)
     
  6. William C

    William C
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  7. npetreley

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    If it is my opinion that is in question, then you have the burden of proof backward. The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate it is wrong. Therefore you need to supply those scriptures that say things changed.
     
  8. William C

    William C
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    Npetreley,
    I refer you back to my post titled "Calvinism is based upon an assumption."

    My view rests upon a fact. Your view rests upon an assumption. The burden is on you.

    What's the big deal? Just find scriptural support teaching that God "effectually calls" or "sovereignly elects" all believers. Surely, if that is what God was trying to Sovereignly reveal he would have stated it somewhere. Right?

    Bro. Bill
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley
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    You just said your view is an opinion. That's not fact. Now you say it is based on fact, but saying so does not make it true. What you must do to show that it is based on fact is that scripture says soteriology has changed since the apostolic age. It hasn't changed simply because you assume it to be so.

    But if that wasn't disingenuous enough, you go on to demand that Calvinists prove you are wrong about issues that occur after scripture was closed from scripture itself, which by definition was written at the time it was written (duh).

    The above, coupled with your propensity to spam the board with the same challenge over and over again tells me you really aren't worth the time. No doubt you will now engage in pointless accusations of how we ran away because we couldn't prove you were wrong. Enjoy your games.
     
  10. William C

    William C
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  11. William C

    William C
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    Besides the arguements I've already presented (which you have yet to address) let's look at God's election in the OT.

    Was everyone in Israel elect? Obviously not. But the nation was elect in that it was the nation God chose to bring about his plan of redemption (I think we all agree on that, right?)

    Ok, then if everyone in Israel was not specifically elected, who was. We know Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob etc. but does the bible say that there are others who were specifically "elected by God."

    It seems that God elected specific individuals from Israel who he used to bring about his plan. These prophets, priest and kings were used as mediators between God and man, much like Christ. They were different than the rest of Israel because they were divinely elected and appointed to a specific purpose. The rest of Israel were left to choose who they would follow.

    Joshua says, "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

    That is a scripture verse so does this qualify as a scriptural arguement? Oh, I hope, I pray I can be taken seriously now.

    Bro. Bill
     
  12. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    ACTS 13:48 - "...And all who were appointed to eternal life believed."

    ROMANS 8:29-33 - "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all--how will He not also, along with Him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring a charge against those whom God has chosen?"

    1 CORINTHIANS 1:26-31 - "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before Him. It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: 'Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.'"

    EPHESIANS 1:4-5 - "For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us..."

    EPHESIANS 1:11 - "In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will..."


    These are just a few passages that deal with the election / predestination of believers who are not Apostles.
     
  13. TheTravelingMinstrel

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    And you have not addressed the arguement that what you say is only for the apostles is also in other NT books.
     
  14. sturgman

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    I did address your argument, I addressed it as it is.

    I can say that my tongue is red and you can say that it is purple. I can hold up a standard of red to my tongue to prove it, but if you do not believe that standard applies to us, then what further proof can I bring? Where else can we find truth but in scripture? Yet you believe that certain verses apply to us and other verses do not. How can we refute it when you close your eyes to your problem. You have offered no proof that those verses don't apply to all believers. Yet you are to tell us they were written to us to tell us about people who are not like us, and therefore can't apply to us, and your just going to have to trust me. I cannot conceed to that, and you may say it is mine to prove, but my proof is scripture. Ubfortunately, you can pick and choose which one applies to you, I cannot.
     
  15. Yelsew

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    Have you considered Sarah? Where else do we hear of a 90 year old woman giving birth to a child? God elected her! What About Noah's wife, His sons and their wives? What about poor ole Lot, and his two incestuous daughters, who lost his wife, their mother, while escaping the destruction of their home. And then there was Job, Nehemiah, Zechariah, Zephaniah, Malachi, and Hosea. Oh my we cannot leave out Daniel for truly he was elected to be the prime minister of Egypt! Did we fail to mention David? or Solomon? or Ruth?, Ezra?

    Golly, them more I think on this the more of the elect I find whose names are written in the Book of Life.

    I don't doubt that if we looked further we'd find both Calvin and Armenius. It wouldn't surpise men to find npetreley, Bro. Bill, even Sturgman. But truly the only name I know about for sure is Yelsew! His name is written there, I remember the rejoicing that took place in heaven when the Worthy Lamb of God wrote it there with his blood.
     
  16. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi Npetreley;
    A quote from you;
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If it is my opinion that is in question, then you have the burden of proof backward. The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate it is wrong. Therefore you need to supply those scriptures that say things changed.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My Reply;
    Actually when you present an opinion it is your responsibility to show why you feel that is true.With out showing the scripture that led you to this position, your position is left un challenged by not complying.You can't state something as fact with out proof and you have none.
    Romanbear
     
  17. William C

    William C
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    Have you considered Sarah? Where else do we hear of a 90 year old woman giving birth to a child? God elected her! What About Noah's wife, His sons and their wives? What about poor ole Lot, and his two incestuous daughters, who lost his wife, their mother, while escaping the destruction of their home. And then there was Job, Nehemiah, Zechariah, Zephaniah, Malachi, and Hosea. Oh my we cannot leave out Daniel for truly he was elected to be the prime minister of Egypt! Did we fail to mention David? or Solomon? or Ruth?, Ezra?

    Golly, them more I think on this the more of the elect I find whose names are written in the Book of Life.

    I don't doubt that if we looked further we'd find both Calvin and Armenius. It wouldn't surpise men to find npetreley, Bro. Bill, even Sturgman. But truly the only name I know about for sure is Yelsew! His name is written there, I remember the rejoicing that took place in heaven when the Worthy Lamb of God wrote it there with his blood.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Your missing my point. I listed those names followed by "etc." meaning the rest of those mention in the scriptures who were used to bring about redeemption to the world. Sorry, I didn't list every name for you. My point is that the scripture doesn't teach that God individually elected every person who was a Jew. And the ones he did elect, were done so for a divine purpose in bringing about redeemption for all mankind.

    In the Old Testament they were under the Law, not Grace. Their faith was based upon what God chose to reveal to them through the prophets, preists and kings who were the ones "effectually called" to carry out God's plan.

    Bro. Bill
     
  18. Frogman

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    Yelsew,

    Before the foundation of the world.

    Bro. Bill,

    your views negate the entire N.T. This book was written to specific churches and people in the first century. Your own view necessitates a new revelation.

    There is a place in Utah where you would be welcomed with little or no argument.

    This calvinist believes in apostolic authority.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  19. William C

    William C
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  20. TheTravelingMinstrel

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    Who gives the apostiles their authority?
    God. Who else.

    We know that scriptures are God inspired, if you say that some scriptures are faulty, then you are saying that God is imperfect and conflicting. If God is imperfect, then Jesus' sacrifice did nothing and we are all living in vain.
     

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