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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ps104_33, Jan 23, 2006.
Being a former Catholic, and having friends who are RCC priests, I can tell you with assuredness that Catholics are supposed to believe in faith in Christ alone, and that faith in Christ requires works in daily Christian living. The problem is that, because the RCC emphasis on good works as part of daily living, there is no shortage of Catholics who have it in their head that those works are required for salvation. My priest friends all say that this is due in part to the lack of the priesthood to address this issue. Now, they're all of the younger generation, being less than 40 years of age, where from their pov, they can look at the flaws present in the older members of the priesthood. You'll be happy to know that these priests to whom I refer are themselves saved and committed Christians, and have stressed to those they minister to the importance of salvation via faith in Christ alone. I'm privileged to call them friends of mine.
Then why are you a "former Catholic"?
Catholics change their theory from time to time.
They said " No Salvation Outside Holy Roman Catholic" (especially by Pius 9, in 1854) Then these days they say there are Salvation outside the Holy Roman Catholic.
They still perform the Mass every week, where priests ask God for the forgiveness of sins all the time, but never bring the answer from God about how their prayer requests were answered.
Is it the way of their believing ?
Ask Catholic priests what was the answer from God after they submitted the prayer request for the remission of sins.
According to Johnv, a Roman Catholic can skip mass, confession, baptism, and all the other ceremonies and rituals and go straight to heaven when he dies.
But I thought God protected the church from error ? A perfect church wouldn't have any flaws in the elder priests.
Purgatory is a huge hurdle for them on this faith alone. Until they dump purgatory they don't have a ghost of a chance of claiming "Faith alone".
The other hurdle they have is 'magic sacraments' where priests with "magic powers" retain those "powers" even after embracing evil doctrines of all kinds (including non-Catholic doctrines of all sorts) because "their soul has been marked" and they retain the magic powers.
Their magic powers enable them to mark the souls of infants so they are "bound for heaven" and enables them to turn bread into God.
I say that fully admitting that between Calvinists and Arminians there is a lot of "yelling" to be heard as one side correct the other on this topic.
My point is that Purgatory goes far beyond that level of dispute.
I believe you are correct. My point is that there are other doctrines in the RCC that prohibit that idea from being held "without conflict".
I still would like to know why Johnv left the Catholic Church. If they believe in faith alone and these priest friends of his are "committed Christians", why leave?
If anyone among Roman Catholic is really born-again by Holy Spirit and Water, then she or he must realize that
The followings are wrong or groundless in Bible.
- Calling Mary as Mother of God
- Immaculate Conception of Mary
- Mary was lifetime Virgin or perpetual Virgin
- Making the statue of Mary
-Worshipping the statue of Mary, Joseph, Jesus
- Groundless claim that Mary ascended (Assumption)
-Salvation by Unction
-Compulsory Celibacy of Priests
- Infant Baptism
- Papal Infallibility
- Clergy System
- No Salvation outside Holy Roman Catholic Church
- Mass asking for the forgiveness of sins
- Eucharist and Transubstantiation (Magic Show)
- Atrocities caused by Inquisition and all the cruel torturing and killing of the people as heretics by Holy Roman Catholic ( It is not way how Jesus taught us to deal with Heretics)
I echo what Johnv has said, as a former Catholic myself with two uncles who are priests and who are most assuredky (in so far as one can know this of anyone else) born again.
To clarify -
1. Purgatory has nothing to do with salvation acc to the RCC; purgatory is for those who are already saved and it is a state of post-mortem ongoing sanctification. The unsaved do not go to purgatory.
2. Acc to Catholic doctrine, they can have a perfect church and yet their priests can still get it wrong. The Church is more than individual priests.
3. Why is Johnv not a Catholic anymore? I obviously can't answer for him but I can for myself. Basically, after the 1054 split between the Catholics and the Orthodox, there was no remaining singular teaching authority in the Church and, as a consequence, certain errors crept into the medieval Catholic Church eg: the Inquisition, clerical celibacy, the loss of the conciliar concept, transubstantiation, and arguably most importantly, the consequences of the late medieval scholasticism of the likes of Biel which effectively amounted to salvation by works. The events of the 16th century: the Magisterial Reformation but also to an extent the Counter-Reformation epitomised by the Council of Trent and more latterly Vatican II addressed these errors and, arguably, the churches that came out of the Magisterial Reformation are equally with the modern post-Vatican II-RCC the (reformed) heirs of the medieval Catholic Church; it's just that I think the Reformation churches did a better job of correcting the medieval errors than did the Catholics...which is why I'm not a Catholic.
4. Fr Catalamessa's words are nothing new or innovative but entirely consistent with Catholic doctrine, even when viewed against the anathemas of Trent. You might want to check out the Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith for further reading; the present Pope was instrumental in composing it.
Saving out of the Purgatory has the same nature as the Salvation. It cannot rely on any human efforts or human merits.
That's why Galatians 3:3 says:
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Therefore the people who claim that any prayer or tormentation can purify anyone to become perfect are all foolish!
If anyone can be saved by the Blood of Jesus, she or he can become perfect by believing Him as well.
If any believer can become perfect by the faith, why do they need a Purgatory?
Some Catholic on this BB said " Robber went to the Paradise directly because he might be a Saint" Then can Roman Catholic not go to the Paradise directly? If not, all Roman Catholics are more miserable than the Robber at the Cross.
This is why I said Purgatory is related to the Salvation.
Again, in the Mass the priests ask God for the forgiveness every week, what was the Answer from God? I never heard about the Answer even though I watch RC priests performing Mass on TV, but never saw them telling the remission of sins.
Just presume that the sins might be forgiven because of tremendous amount of prayers?
Is that faith alone?
Then I'm afraid you are ignorant of Catholic doctrine - Purgatory has nothing to do with salvation.
But not everything in your list is wrong and some of the things in your list show your ignorance of Roman Catholic theology, for instance the Mass is the celebration of the Eucharist. According, the RCC theology and practice you cannot celebrate the Mass without the Eucharist because the Eucharist is what makes it a Mass.
That's personal, and I choose not to share that with the board at this time. However, your reasoning in asking is flawed. I was once a member of a Calvary Chapel congregation, and once a member of a nondenominational church. Just because I left there doesn't mean I have anything in particular against Calvary Chapels or unaffiliated churches.
Yes, Eucharist is the core part of Mass.
Do you believe that Wine is changed to Blood every time when Priest pray?
We only believe and remember that Jesus shed the blood at the Cross. The commemoration by the Bread and Wine is conducted in remembrance of Lord. You may say that Lutheran are similar to Transubstantiation, and Calvin was so. But as time goes on, people realized that Transubstantiation or Con-substantiation is not true. Bread and Wine just remind us of the death and the blood at the Cross.
The main problem which I pointed out on Mass was that Priests pray for the forgiveness of sins every week. It proves that they don't believe that all the sins were forgiven already when Jesus died at the Cross.
Have you ever heard what kind of answers the Catholic priest bring from God about their prayers ?
Whoa there Eliyahu. While it's true that the Cross paid the price for all sin, I don't think sins are forgiven until one acknowleges the sin and expresses sorrow for the sin (with some exception, such as if the offended person asks the Lord to forgive a transgressor).
Otherwise, there's no need for repentence.
JohnV, please don't accept my following point as intending to hurt you.
I have noticed that your posts continuously reveal certain problem with your faith, which raise the doubt about your salvation.
Have you read 1 John 2:2?
What about Hebrews 10:17-18?
Have you understood Rom 3:20-25?
Have you heard any answer brought by Catholic priests about their prayers? What were the answer?
So whom would you guys bash if the catholics weren't around?
Oh Lord thank you that I am not like this manner, sinner...
If RC believe Faith Alone for Salvation, then do they give up faith when they talk about Purgatory, after Salvation?
In other words, for the salvation RC may be talking about Faith Alone. Then after Salvation, when they encounter the issue of Purgatory, do they need effort and a lot of prayers by their descendants while they are in the Purgatory?
Or they may need many of their descendants who are willing to pay for Indulgences, while they are suffering the tormentation in the Purgatory.
Oh! How miserable Roman Catholics are ! They are much worse than the Robber at the Cross who entered the Paradise directly by believing in Jesus!