Do Christians become perfect with the Resurrection of the Dead?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Kathryn, Aug 4, 2003.

  1. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    St. Paul seems to tell us how we will become perfect at the Resurrection of the dead. Not that Christians here have already obtained or have already become perfect:

    St. Paul in Hebrews talking about Jesus Christ perfecting those who are sanctified:
    St. Paul talking about the greater gifts that are more important, and what will happen to those gifts when our perfection comes:
    Paul himself tells us what “when that which is perfect comes” means. It is our own sanctification and holiness our bodies and souls are united in perfection at the end of the world. Then we will see clearly. For now we have faith, hope, and love, and we see in a mirror dimly. We are far from perfect yet.

    God Bless
     
  2. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    No where did Paul or anyone else say that we would be perfect, at least not in the sense that you imply. The Old Engilsh word "perfect" has changed. It does not mean perfection in the sense that you understand it today. Its meaning is "complete," and often "mature." It does not mean sinless, without error, withour flaw, etc.
    I metioned to you before tha context is the most important thing in determing the meaning of this word since it is simply an adjective describing a noun. It is used 99 times, and descrbes many, many things. To try and link these passages together and say they are all talking of the same thing just because they have the word "perfect" in them is pure folly. Does your logic fit when God says I hate them with "a perfect hatred?" How does this verse fit into your theology of perfection?

    Paul is not speaking of the resurrection, per se.
    The Apostle Paul wanted to be conformed to Christ. Since Christ had suffered, died, and been raised from among the dead, Paul wanted nothing better than this for himself. We fear that our own desire for comfort, luxury, and ease often causes us to remove the sharp cutting edges of some of these Bible verses. Would in not be safer to take them at their face value--literally--unless that setting is impossible in the light of the rest of the Bible? Notice that Paul is speaking of the resurrection from "among" the dead. This is not a resurrection of all the dead. Rather it describes a resurretion in which some will be raised, but others will remain. 1Thes.4:13-18 and 1Cor.15 teach that all believers will be raised at the coming of Christ. , and all unbelievers at the end of the Millenial Reign of Christ.

    The Apostle Paul did not consider himself already perfected. Perfected refers not to the resurrection in the previous verse, but to the whole subject of conformity of Christ. Paul realized that satisfaction in the Christian life was like a grave to one's progress.
    Thus he pressed on in order that the purpose for which the Lord Jesus had saved him might be fulfilled in him. The apostle had been apprehended by Christ Jesus on the road to Damascus. What was the purpose of this momentous meeting? It was that Paul might from then on be a pattern-saint, that God might show through him what Christ can do in a human life. He was not yet perfectly conformed to Christ. The process was still going on, and Paul was deeply exercised that this work of God's grace might continue and deepen.

    Paul was not content with spiritual attainments. He did not count himself as having already "arrived," as we would say today.
    "But this one thing I do" He was a man of a single purpose. He had one aim and ambition. In this he resembled David, who said, "One thing have I desired of the Lord."
    "Forgetting those things which are behind" would mean not only his sins and failures but also his natural privileges, attainments, and successes which he had described earlier in this chapter, and even his spiritual triumphs.
    "And reaching forward to those things which are ahead" namely, the privileges and responsibilities of the Christian life, whether worship, service, or the personal development of Christian character.

    Here the apostle contrasts the heavenly minded of the true believer.
    At the time the episitle was written, Philippi was a colony of Rome (Acts 16:12). The Philippians were citizens of Rome, enjoying its protection and privileges. But they were also citizens of their local government. Against this backdrop, the apostle reminds the believers that their citizenship is in heaven.
    This does not mean that Christians are not also citizens of earthly countries. Other Scriptures clearly teach that we are to be subject to governments because they are ordained by God (Rom.13:1-7).
    Not only are we citizens of heaven, but we also eagerly wait for the Saviour from heaven. Eagerly wait for is strong language in the original to eexpress the earnest expectation of something believed to be imminent. It means literally to thrust forard the head and neck as in anxious expectation of hearing or seeing something.

    When the Lord Jesus comes from Heaven He will change these bodies of ours. There is nothing vile or evil about the human body itself. The evil lies in the wrong uses to which it is put.
    But it is a lowly body, a body of humiliation. It is subject to wrinkles, scars, age, suffereing, sickness, and death.
    The Lord will transform it into a body of glory. The full extent of the meaning of this we do not know. It will no longer be subject to decay of death, to the limitations of time or of natural barriers. It will be a real body, yet perfectly suited to conditions in heaven. It will be like the resurrection body of the Lord Jesus.
    This does not mean that we will all have the same physical appearance! Jesus was distinctly recognizable after His resurrection, and doubtless each individual will have his or her own individual physical identity in eternity.
    Also this passage does not teach that we shall be like the Lord Jesus Christ as far as the attributes of God are concerned. We shall never have all-knowledge or all-power; neither shall we be in all plaes at one and the same time. But we shall be morally like the Lord Jesus. We shall be forever free from sin. This passage does not give us enough to satisfy our curiosity, but it is enough to inspire comfort and stimulate hope.
    (Taken from MacDonald's Bible Commentary)
    DHK

    As you can see this has not been the case, in Philippians, and I doubt that it will be here.
     
  3. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kathryn,

    Paul is speaking of the Judgements within the sanctification process.

    there is a transformation between the child and young man stage when the child recognizes by faith that the spirit of christ has actually been placed in them and they themselves within the activity of Their heavenly father raising Up Jesus from the dead, has also risen the believer from death.

    they have been spiritually resurrected.

    during this faith trial. they also recognize that Christ has become lord, defeating even death.

    that which is part..the recognition of the resurrection of christ becomes the very spirit within them. alowing them to recognize that the very spirit within them has been risen, becomes "Christ within them", and he is sitting on the right hand of the father in power becomes.
    The Spirit of the Lord, that is within them.

    that which is perfect is come.

    this is the resurrection of the quick and dead.

    during these judgements, some are judged risen in christ..quickened.
    or the Believer remains in a state of death. becoming a servant of their flesh and enmity against their God.

    its a spiritual judgement while a believer is physically alive and living by faith.

    Me2
     
  4. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do Christians become perfect with the Resurrection of the Dead? How about "yes" or "no" along with any answers to clarify the responses. I would like to make some sense of the diversity of the answers to this question.

    God Bless
     
  5. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Absolutely not! (And that BTW) is why your interpretation does not work with 1Cor.13:8-13).
    To claim perfection is blasphemy.
    We are told in Scripture that at the resurrection we will become like Christ--that is a simily. Like, as, similar to, but not exactly the same.

    Our minds will not be just as his mind. We will not be omniscient. To claim that is to claim deity. Only God is omniscient.

    Our bodies will not be exactly like his in that they will not be able to be at all places at the same time--omnipresent. Only God can do that. To claim that is blasphemy.

    We will not have the power that he has. He alone is all powerful. To claim that is blasphemy.

    We will still be learning in heaven. We will not have perfect bodies in heaven. Not even Christ has a "perfect" body, though he could have, had he chosen to. He is not without blemish. He said to Thomas, "Behold my hands, my feet, my side...." He still retains the scar tissue of the marks that he bore from being crucified. In that sense it is not a perfect body. It has scars or blemishes. He chose it to be that way, to be an everlasting reminder to us of our eternal salvation.
    DHK
     
  6. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK: To become perfect would be a perfect DHK, a perfect Paul, a perfect Kathryn. A complete, perfect person, body and soul, the way were were meant to be, in the image and likeness of God.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    You are speaking in nebulous terms:
    "the way they were meant to be"
    "in the image and likeness of God."
    "perfect"

    Please define your terms.

    I was already created in the image and likeness of God.
    I was already created the way that God wanted me to be.
    Perhaps I already am perfect according to the Bible definition of the word. How do you know? Have you looked the word up in a Greek lexicon to find out what the word even means?

    "Be ye perfect even as my Father in Heaven is perfect."
    Would God give us a command that we cannot obey?
    DHK
     
  8. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK: Read in Genesis about how we were intended to be before the fall. That may help you.

    God Bless
     
  9. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    This is not how I was intended to be; this is how God created me:

    Gen.1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    The problem is sin. Man has a sin nature, and by his own will rebels against God. When I received Jesus Christ as my Saviour, that image and likeness was restored. The fellowship that I never had before, my spirit being dead because of sin (Eph.2:1), is now alive unto God. I am a new creation made in the image and likeness of God.
    DHK
     
  10. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK:
    You are not perfect yet.

    For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. Philippians 3:20-21

    Then we will be complete, and perfect DHK and Kathryn with God__knowing, loving, and serving Him.

    God Bless
     
  11. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    That speaks of the conformity and transformation of our body. Where does it speak of perfection in the Biblical sense of the Word.
    I ask you again Does God give a command that we cannot keep?
     
  12. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    St. Paul explains becoming perfect with the Resurrection of the dead very well, we must press on and are not perfect yet. This is in the biblical sense of the word perfect:


    Philippians 3:8
    More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

    Philippians 3:9
    and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

    Philippians 3:10
    that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

    Philippians 3:11
    in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

    Philippians 3:12
    Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

    Philippians 3:13
    Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead ……….,

    Philippians 3:20
    For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ ;

    Philippians 3:21
    who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

    God Bless
     
  13. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can keep His commands with His grace. Our perfection however will not be complete until the Resurrection of our glorified bodies.

    God Bless
     
  14. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Why repost?
    Go back and read my commentary on the same Scripture.
    DHK
     
  15. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    We can keep His commands with His grace. Our perfection however will not be complete until the Resurrection of our glorified bodies.

    God Bless
    </font>[/QUOTE]So what does it mean to keep this command:
    (Mat 5:48 KJV) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
     
  16. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did read your comments and St. Paul explains you questions. It was not a repost. I included more passages. It is speaking of the Resurrection of the Body and our own perfection in the biblical sense of completion coming only then and not now.

    God Bless
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Generally speaking, up to verse 14, Paul is speaking of his personal achievements which he has renounced for Christ's sake. He then urges the Philippians (still in this passage to keep on keeping on, to press toward the goal, not to quit. This has nothing to do with the resurrection, but practical Christian living.

    From verse 15 to 21, in general he encourages the Philippians to walk a "heavenly" walk, as was exemplified in his own life. He is not speaking of the resurrection.

    Verse 15."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect," The sense is "as many as be mature should share Paul's willingness to suffer for Christ.
    I have commented on the other verses. I have answere your questions; it is you that has not responded to that which I posted.
    DHK
     
  18. Kathryn

    Kathryn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK, you ask:

    It means to be holy.

    1 Peter 1:15
    but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

    1 Peter 1:16
    because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."


    God Bless
     
  19. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam had no knowledge of God or Satan.

    Good or Evil.

    is this where ignorance is bliss comes from?

    Adam was in a process of becoming or being formed into the image of God. which required Adam to partake of the fruit. and in turn be placed into the eternal Godlike nature originally intended within the Son.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Adam had no knowledge of God!!!
    How is that possible, when he walked with Adam in the cool of the day??

    (Gen 3:8 KJV) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
    DHK
     

Share This Page

Loading...