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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Dec 22, 2011.
After we die, are we raised in a spiritual or a physical bodily form by God?
After we die our spirits go to be with the Lord if we are saved. In the resurrection we receive new bodies to be joined with our spirits.
The same for the lost. At death they enter into torment and at their resurrection they receive a new body that cannot perish but be tormented for eternity.
So you see it as being a physical bodily resurrection?
Yes if we are saying the Lord raised in a physical body (and I do)then I see no reason to believe anything else based on scripture.
Christ is the first-fruits from the dead (1Cor 15:20). Therefore however He rose is the way we shall rise. Now read Luke 24:39-43.
Physical...the spiritual occured the instant we were in Christ.
The correct answer is "both." We will have a spiritual body if we die before the Lord completes His plan as detailed in Revelation, then we will inherit a new physical body and be united with Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
We see evidence of this in Revelation where the spirits of the dead in Christ cry out from the throne of God awaiting their time for the final resurrection.
Rev. 6:9-11 (ESV)
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.  They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"  Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Rev. 20:4-5 (ESV)
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
I would not believe it if I were not seeing it with my own eyes, webdog. We agree! Well almost.
I believe the resurrection body is different in certain aspects from what we consider our physical body. All those people that the Bible indicates were raised from the dead, died again. The resurrection body is an eternal body. The Apostle Paul rightly states:
1 Corinthians 15:54, 55 KJV
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Jesus Christ was able to do certain things after His resurrection that we cannot do. An example that comes to mind is when He entered the room where the Apostles were:
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Yet he also ate fish at another time.
It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body(1 Cor. 15).
To elaborate on this that I posted earlier.
1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
You can see that there is a change that takes place for the body sown in the earth. It is sown one way, and raised another, from natural to spiritual. Those who are alive when Jesus comes in the Cloud will be also changed from natural to spiritual, caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and be taken home to heaven. So I believe that their will be spiritual bodies in heaven, because I believe that Jesus has a spiritual body as well.
I used the term physical body in a previous post for the resurrected body because I believe the body we receive has form and can be handled. Do you think the distinction that scripture is using when it refers to spiritual body lies mostly in the fact that is cannot be destroyed through death.
Physical as well as spiritual:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
It's hard to express this through a keyboard, but I'll try to be short and concise, so bear with me.
After Jesus arose, He did eat, and in fact, He was handled by people. I do not deny this. However, this was while He was here on earth. In John 4, Jesus told the woman at the well that His Father is a Spirit, and He seeketh such that do worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Now, if Jesus' Father is a Spirit, then Jesus is a Spirit while in heaven. No flesh will glory in God's prescense. It states that we will get a new body that is likened until His body. This is why I think we will get a new spiritual body.
Let me make a correction in something you said and it comes from the KJV writers. The text you referred to about the Father being "A Spirit" is not what the Greek says. It simply says "Spirit". They added the “a” and I believe it was incorrect to do so. So what is your understanding of Spirit? How does that passage describe what we will receive at the resurrection and what is spirit? Is is like some floating fog or what?
The Logos, the Second person of the Trinity is a Spirit, but has a body which He acquired here on earth.
The koine language does not have or use the indefinite article, therefore the use of the indefinite article for translation into English has to be determined from the context.
Your first point is a guess. You have no scripture to back it up.
Your second statement about the Greek I understand about eh conditionals in the Greek but the context does not warrant the article in my opinion. In fact I believe the context requires leaving the article out.
A guess? What part is a guess?
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Before the incarnation and being "made of a woman" He was not flesh, what therefore was His substance?
There is the definite article : The book - a particular book.
Then there is the indefinite article : A book - book in general, an indefinite book.
The Koine Greek language has NO indefinite article. It doesnt exist.
It does however have the definite article.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The indefinite article is supplied in the English text.
Actually the koine text for "God is a Spirit" is "Spirit the God", it doesn't even use a form the verb "to be" - in this case "is"
If one leaves the indefinite article out of the English text as you suggest then this means that though God is three persons in one essence that essence is spirit and therefore each of the distinct persons is spirit.
And therefore you might be right.
What in your estimation is this verse saying (in English) if one leaves out the indefinite article?
The difference might mean in "essence" or in "substance" which difference would be very subtle and perhaps non-existant.
Are there any koine translators like John of Japan to give an opinion?
FAL, what then are you saying, do you believe the Logos (Christ) had a human body before the incarnation?
Hello Hank, No I don't believe the Word had a physical body prior to being born a man. The guess that I feel you are making is that the Word was a spirit. I believe the Word was word. I do not believe there was three spirits, A spirit Father, A Spirit Son, and A Spirit Spirit.
Also what exactly is Spirit? The Greek can mean wind or breath. This is why I do not believe the article "a" should be included in the passage of John. John is not describing God as "a" spirit as if one of many. He is saying God is spirit and all that is involved in that so that the true worshippers must worship in the same manner that God is, spirit and truth. We do not worship in "a" spirit and truth. A person must be of the same spirit of God (born again) to do so. I believe this is why Jesus could say if you have seen me you have seen the Father yet Jesus was not the Father He was/is the Son. One Spirit all encompassing in three persons. Thus there is only one God as God is Spirit, not a spirit.
Christ has ALWAYS had a spiritual body which is physical. He exchanged this when he became flesh (corruptible). He had a real body in the OT and has a real body today.