Do Modern Translations Deny Jesus' Deity?

" 'That is all.'??

Uh, no!

This is not the U.S. Army, where I'm stationed with "Hawkeye", "Trapper", and "Radar" in a M*A*S*H! unit in Korea, Rippon!" :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Signed, Language Cop

 

No more discussion --

Signed,Colonel Potter (grumpy but fair)

_________________________________

Back to the subject of the modern versions which affirm the Deity of Christ.

 

Have you looked at those verses for yourself, yet? You almost imply that Gunn had selectively prejudiced the comparison. However, he used mostly solid classic prooftexts for the Deity of Christ [from OP: "(John 1:1, 18; Acts 20:28; Romans 9:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:12; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8 and 2 Peter 1:1)"]. I may have preferred either John 20:28, Philippians 2:5-6, Colossians 1:15-16, Colossians 2:9, or 1 Timothy 3:16 (or perhaps others) to his choice of 2 Thessalonians 1:12. Nonetheless, the inclusion of 2 Thessalonians 1:12 doesn't affect the KJV's score (4), although dropping this verse would have erased the NIV's only "X" against it.

Would someone with Carson's book be willing to clarify a discrepancy I seem to viewing on the linked page? Gunn's chart displays some unexplained listings in the left column such as "RV mg.", "NEB mg.", and "NIV mg." (which I suppose "mg." to indicate 'marginal' notes found in that version). However, the totals for these items do not correspond with the 'check' or "X" marks; for example, the "NASB mg." is assigned only one "X" but has been given a score of 6 (for number of 'checks').

 

Thank you. So refreshing to note!

 

Is it ok to be KJV mostly?

Cheers,

Jim

 

Nothing wrong with that at all, brother Jim. It's all God's word.

 

I don't have the book, but did manage to figure out what the chart was referring to and how the 'score' is assigned. I believe you have misunderstood the 'ratings system' actually. I did the same thing, FTR.

Re-read, and I believe you will get it. As I indicated, I also was initially confused, by how this was computed, absent the book.

Ed

 

Don't forget Hebrews 2:9 a JW prooftext:

KJV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.​

NAS Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.​

RSV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.​

A significant difference in the theological implication of the Kenosis.

BTW, IMO, the NAS and RSV are correct in the translation of the koine phrase brachu ti which for some unknown reason the KJV and other translators let slip by them.

Brachu ti is found in both the CT and TR.

HankD

 

Then these two English translations had Hebrews 2:9 correct much earlier than the NAS and RSV --

But hym that [for a whyle] was made lesse then the Angels, we see [that it was] Iesus, who through the sufferyng of death, was crowned with glorie and honour, that he by the grace of God, shoulde taste of death for all. (Bishops')

Neuertheles now se we not all thinges yet subdued vnto him. But him, which for a litle season was made lesse then the angels, we se that it is Iesus: which is crowned with honoure and glory for the sufferynge of death, that he by the grace of God, shulde taist of death for all men. (Coverdale)​

So, it seems that the king's revisers made a deliberate choice not a "slip", perhaps for the same reason given in this article by the ISV publishers --
http://isv.org/catacombs/hebrews_2v7-9.htm

 

It's possible, but the lowering refers to "authority" such as in military rank not in the essence of His being. In His humanity He voluntarily became subject to the Father.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

The general may be greater in rank than the private but no more or less a man than the private.​

This is why I mentioned the Kenosis which has to do with the "lowering" of Jesus as a human being.​

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Notice that it says "made Himself of no reputation" not that the Father made Him of no reputation, therefore He had the authority in and of Himself and the "lowering" was a voluntary agreement between the equal Father and Son and Holy Spirit members of the Trinity.​

That He was resurrected in His same body (howbeit eternal and glorified) then ate and drank with the disciples, proves that He has retained His humanity and that throughout eternity.​

Nevertheless, the words brachu ti are in the text and should have been translated no matter the reason for not wanting to do so.​

Especially if the reason is a slavish adherance to tradition or previous translations.​

I truly appreciate this website you led me to as it has brought to light a possible reason for dropping the words "little while".​

I notice that in the New World Translation Greek Interlinear (JW) the words are translated "little something" which makes no sense at all but IMO effectively side-steps the issue.​

Thanks again
HankD​

 

I was discussing this issue with someone on another board a few years back and he contended that the problem with modern English Bible versions was not that the denied Jesus's diety, but that they denied his humanity. I tried to get him to explain what he meant and where the modern versions did this. However, he quit playing at that point and would not discuss it any further.

 

I compared the verses you indicated [shown below] using the KJV, the NASB, and Greens Literal Translation. I see very little difference in any of the translations, certainly nothing to indicate that the KJV teaches the deity of Jesus Christ less than the NASB or the GLT. I am not a King James only person, though I prefer it, however, it appears to me that Gunn is not unbiased in his reading of the KJV.

(John 1:1, KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(John 1:1, NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(John 1:1, GLT)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


(John 1:18, KJV)
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(John 1:18, NASB)
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

(John 1:18, GLT)
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One reveals Him.


(Acts 20:28, KJV)
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

(Acts 20:28, NASB)
28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

(Acts 20:28, GLT)
28 Then take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased through His own blood.


(Romans 9:5, KJV)
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(Romans 9:5, NASB)
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(Romans 9:5, GLT)
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen.


(2 Thessalonians 1:12, KJV)
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Thessalonians 1:12, NASB)
12 in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Thessalonians 1:12, GLT)
12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.


(Titus 2:13, KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(Titus 2:13, NASB)
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

(Titus 2:13, GLT)
13 looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


(Hebrews 1:8, KJV)
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

(Hebrews 1:8, NASB)
8 But of the Son He says, “thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of his kingdom.

(Hebrews 1:8, GLT)
8 but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom;


(2 Peter 1:1, KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

(2 Peter 1:1, NASB)
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

(2 Peter 1:1, GLT)
1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained faith in the righteousness of our God and our Savior, Jesus Christ:

 

Since the KJV and the NASB received the same marks in Gunn's analysis in 5 of the 8 verses, the only remaining relevant comparisons would be between them where they differ (at John 1:18, Titus 2:13, and 2 Peter 1:1).

There is an obvious difference in John between referring to the Word [Jesus Christ] as the only begotten "God", or the only begotten "Son". Some sects claim that a "begotten" son indicates a created being (thus, denies his Deity).

The issues of Titus & 2 Peter are essentially one and the same: are these referrences to a single Person of the Godhead (Jesus Christ as both our "God and Savior") or two separate Persons of the Trinity ("God", and our Savior "Jesus Christ")?