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Featured Do non-cals believe in omniscience?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Feb 14, 2012.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Good post, and maintains truth about the Nature of God, but of course a "determinist" ;) will have to reject it because it doesn't fit his boxed system, and if he has nothing to rationally respond to he'll probably just dismiss it by accusing of you making MAN God. Don't have time to get into this but wanted to pass by with the :thumbs:.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    :thumbs: Seems if you cannot package just right it is then defaulted to a string of pejoratives. They irony is they create even more tensions and "mystery" by implementing their system in the place of the clear understanding of the text.
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    The "street lingo" used to discribe the context of your commentary, I believe is

    dissed

    past participle, past tense of dis
    Verb:
    Act or speak in a disrespectful way toward another.
     
  4. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Why not explain that "clear understanding of the text" for us right now so that we can all see how it works out.
     
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I think many Arminians might think that their system does exonerate God from the origin of evil- but I think most of them who really ponder the matter realize that this is not so and are unwilling to compromise the definition of God's omniscience.

    I think we find here on baptistboard that most of us with a few exceptions agree that God most assuredly KNEW before he made the world that it would fall and yet he made it any way.
     
  6. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I would certainly hope so. There seems to be a trend to undermine the attributes of God, these things seem to be popular, and for the sake of unity, some have been seen to accept the views of Pinnock, when they should be rejected.

    Roger Olsen thinks this is something that shouldn't be taken too seriously, and he is a noted Arminian. This should be an interesting read:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2010/08/why-open-theism-doesnt-even-matter-very-much/
     
    #106 preacher4truth, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2012
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Not sure about the first statement, but I do like the second.
     
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I knew before I had children that they would sin, but that does not mean I condone any sin they commit.

    Jesus said sin is necessary. It "must needs be"

    Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

    God wants people who love him and choose him. To do this he must enable us to have free will. That free will that enables us to truly love and choose him necessitates that a person also be able to choose against God and hate him. It cannot be avoided, "it must needs be".

    Programmed robots cannot love, only creatures with true free will can love. Free will always entails risk, to be able to obey and love, a person must also be able to rebel and hate.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Mark already did (with Scripture) and you just dismissed it while implying he is an open theist. Can you repent without changing your mind or intended actions?
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Thank you for the clearly biased and confusing commentary :thumbs:
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The god he described is beholden unto man......waiting and hoping that man responds...so then he can do something. he does not know what will happen...because evidently he has not purposed anything to actually happen....he kind of wishes ...and hopes it works out;
    then he describes the god who somehow, draws everyman to jesus even those who have not heard of Him.....and he is not wiiling that any perish,and yet they do...so his will does not get done. he is a frustrated deity...unlike the biblical God who plans and purposes exactly who He will save,and then actually saves THEM...in Covenant grace and mercy.


    THIS GOD;
    11He shall see of the travail of his soul,
    : by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


    No hand wringing....no frustration, no "repenting".....He changes not.
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If only Mark had even hinted any of that convoluted mess....
     
  14. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    Didn't need to, as the Apsotle John had it written and explained to us also!
     
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Not the apostle, the one on this thread. Follow along :D
     
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    But, with all due respect, even if that point is conceded it in no way equates the Calvinistic problem with the Arminian problem, as you argue. It is called the "You Too Fallacy" when one attempts to divert attention onto a similar, but not equal, problem of the opposition without providing any response to their own problem.
     
  17. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    So, you are conscious of what you are doing... :thumbs:

    And, actually the problems are the same. Just that the solutions to them approach from opposite vantage points.
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I am not diverting attention from my position. My position is not in question on this thread, so there is no diverting at all.

    There is no need to respond to my problem since it is the exact same as the Arminian problem which cannot be responded to unless there is a watering down of the definition of omniscience.

    We are all in the exact same boat.

    Denial of this divides us- recognizing this fact unites us.

    Both Arminians (and non-cals) and Calvinists cannot exonerate God to our own emotional satisfaction from being the author of evil (though both of us know that he is NOT the author of evil).

    We both affirm that God KNEW BEFORE HE MADE THIS WORLD WHAT WOULD COME OF IT- yet he went right ahead and made it anyway.

    That's a problem for ALL orthodox Christians, Calvinist and Non-Calvinist alike.

    It is not a problem for the person who (and this might not be you brother) simply says that since God's knowledge is not like ours then maybe he did NOT know BEFORE he made the world what would become of it.

    But for all of us, and I think this probably includes you, who really do believe that God knew before he made the world what would come of it- we all share the same problem.

    Division comes when either side denies this by redefining God. The Calvinist might say God is the direct creator of evil and actually performs evil. This is a redefinition of God. The Arminian might say, "Well God did not KNOW these things were going to happen." That's a redefinition of God.

    We both ought to be able to say, "God knew EXACTLY what would take place, yet he made the world anyway and we just don't know how he is not the author of evil in light of these facts but we trust him."

    That's when we can unite.
     
  19. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    This is one of the best posts I have ever read of yours. There is so much about God we will never know(like seeing through a glass darkly), in our finite minds. Whatever happens, we can trust Him to protect us. People bite their nails worrying about the economy. I don't. I have my trust firmly planted in Him, and He will provide for me......


    Oh, how sweet it is to proclaim I am I AM'S lock, stock, and barrell!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Your view is exactly the same as the Jews had. They had expected the promised Christ to be this powerful king and military leader who would crush all of Israel's enemies. They could not perceive of Christ as this lowly carpenter.

    Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
    56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
    57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
    58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

    Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
    4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
    5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them

    Jesus did not come as this powerful military leader but a lowly carpenter, therefore the Jews were offended. He did not meet their expectations. And we see because of their unbelief that Jesus's power was limited, he could not perform mighty works among these unbelievers.

    Calvinists must see God as this powerful being who's will cannot be frustrated, but the scriptures clearly show it was.

    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Jesus here is absolutely describing frustration at the Jews and said how he longed to bring their children unto himself but they refused and would not.

    So, like the Jews, you start with a false presumption and therefore misinterpret scripture. God does not force people to obey him. God's power was limited by people's unbelief. And God's will on earth was not always done and he was frustrated.

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Jesus said only those who do the will of his Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven, therefore his will is not always performed.
     
    #120 Winman, Feb 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2012
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