Do non-cals have something to be worried about?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Amy.G, Feb 26, 2010.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    I was told in another thread that if God has not revealed the "truths" of Calvinism to someone, they have something to be worried about.


    Should non-cals be worried? Should we be worried that we are not saved?

    Do only the saved believe the doctrines of Grace or Calvinism?

    Is this how we know who is saved and who is not? Is it the measuring stick?
     
  2. Allan

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    It's a stick alright, but it isn't used for measuring :)
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    who said that, and what Scripture was cited ?
    I don't buy that, for one.
    An elect is elect not because he/she understands the Doctrine of Grace, or is a Calvinist, but because God loved him/her before he/she loved Him.
    Nothing in the Bible that says a prerequisite for eternal salvation is correct soteriology.
    Don't worry about it, Amy.G.
    If I don't see you in heaven, which I am sure I will, I will throw a saintly tantrum.:BangHead:
     
  4. Jon-Marc

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    Jesus said "Ye must be born again." He did NOT say "Ye must be a Calvinist." Nor did He say "Ye must be a Baptist." Jesus and His words are the measuring stick. I am a Christian who happens to be a Baptist, because a Baptist is the only one who ever cared enough about my soul to ask me "Are you saved?"
     
  5. Allan

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    BTW - Dr. Bob made this comment before closing the thread:
    Not only is this comment false, I am amazed Dr. Bob would put something like this out there without having done any 'proper' research on it.

    CHS both supported D.L. Moody ministry and allowed him preach at his church. Moody did not affirn the Soveriegn grace doctrines.

    CHS is also on record stating this about Wesley and Whitfield :
    Apparently someone is sadly mistaken.
     
    #5 Allan, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2010
  6. Tom Butler

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    I'm a DoG, but I find nothing in the scriptures that links a belief in Calvinism to salvation.

    Jesus said "repent."
    Peter said "repent."
    Paul said "repent" And some who heard "believed." (Acts 17)
    Paul said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved."
    Paul said "confess him as Lord and believe that he rose from the dead."
    Philip told the eunuch "if you believe with all your heart..."
    The eunuch said "I believe the Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
     
  7. Jerome

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    The statement at issue:

    "I have also seen the measuring line in the hands of others—Doctrinalists. Yes. And their line has five marks which were originally made by John Calvin. And if your opinions do not square exactly to the standard, you are cut off from all part and lot in the blessings of vital godliness. Zion is certainly built according to the arrangement of the five points and therefore if any Brother or Sister does not comprehend and receive them all, he is not a weak Believer, but according to the measuring line of our rigid friends, he is not a Believer at all!" —Charles Spurgeon, The Man With the Measuring Line

    Spurgeon is criticizing those who would do this.
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    I admit error in jumping on a quotation (I revised it on the now-closed thread). Spurgeon had great grace.

    He does, in a hundred other cases, condemn the semi-pelagian works heresy of his/our day. But in the quotation he was condemning those who would make "five-points" the only test of true Christianity.

    Sorry for my error. Another year in purgatory . . .
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    Any chance of being a Calmenianist?
     
  10. Allan

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    No purgatory, but I wish to appologize for being a little harsh on you, on that issue. :flower:
     
  11. olegig

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    Amy may have been referring to post 197 & 198 in the "Lets suppose Calvinism is true.........." thread.
    But I bet Amy can speak for herself in this matter.
     
  12. Dale-c

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    The simple fact is that you must be born again. That is a calvinist doctrine. You have to be saved the calvinist way (ie, be born again) or you are not saved. However, you don't have to have that full understanding.

    Many arminians were in fact born again yet they don't fully realize what has taken place. They are saved because they were born again. They just don't yet understand fully the supernatural side of what took place.

    I was in that state for a long time myself.
     
  13. Amy.G

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    Yes. That's it.

    Here it is:


    My OP has nothing to do with CHP. I have great respect for Spurgeon and do not think for a minute he believed that non-cals are unsaved.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    Amy

    You asked a nonsensical question and I gave a nonsensical answer. That is the reason I did not respond to your second post, especially after that yankee webdog implied that I did question the salvation of those who believe in free will. But he has spoken with a forked tongue before.

    You have the same Revelation from GOD that every other Christian has so it is nonsensical to ask why GOD would leave non-cals in the dark implying that those of us who believe in the Doctrines of Grace have or claim to have some additional Revelation. Obviously I believe that we do a better job of interpreting Scripture than you who follow Freewillism! I have never questioned your salvation and you know it. I have never questioned the salvation of anyone on this Forum. If I had I am sure it would have been called to the attention of the Administrators by those I have offended on this Forum.

    My salvation has been questioned several times by a number of people I could name; all very cleverly of course. But that is okay. GOD knows whether HE has chosen me unto salvation. If HE has then I am saved or will be saved. If HE has not then I will suffer what I and all others on this Forum so richly deserve.

    [I must admit that I have said, as olegig well knows, the Apostle Paul states that anyone who claims there is more than one gospel is accursed. olegig was of course very gracious in finding the original post for you; just wanted to make sure credit is given where credit is due.]

    Amy, I even sent you a personal note in January. Perhaps you made no effort to read it so I will repeat it below.

    Amy.G

    I don't want to fuss with you over our differences in understanding of GOD's purpose in Salvation. As I have told you before there was a time in my life as a Christian when I rejected the Doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation. However, I have always believed that Salvation is a supernatural act of GOD, not the simple assent by someone to the facts about Jesus Christ. As I studied Scripture I became convinced of the truth of what some call Calvinism, though I reject that name since Calvin taught some things I don't believe.

    The response by AresMan in post #70 gives some insight into the reason behind the Doctrines of Grace. Of particular merit is his final statement:

    "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is not that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves anyone."
     
  15. donnA

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    no

    yes,, but not who are saved beleive it.

    no

    yes
     
    #15 donnA, Feb 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2010
  16. Aaron

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    Everyone has something to worry about. We're told to examine ourselves, whether we be in the faith. Of course, the Holy Spirit is the one Who assures us.

    A Calvinist has to worry whether he is truly born again, or if he is simply betraying the Son with a kiss. There is only one way to allay that fear—prayer.

    A non-Calvinist has to worry whether he has done something right. Did he really fully "give" is heart to the Lord? There is no way to allay that fear. Many try multiple confessions and baptisms. Others trust in their works of prayer and confession (a scary place to be indeed).

    I'd rather have the Calvinist's worry.
     
  17. olegig

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    I agree Paul said something similar to the above, let's look at what he did say:

    Galatians 1:9 (King James Version)
    9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    As is easily seen in the above, Paul does not make his curse against one who claims there was more than one gospel.
    Paul makes the curse against anyone who would "preach" any other gospel than what he is preaching.
    Would Paul make this curse if indeed there was not another gospel out there that his audience could follow?
    And if this other "gospel" was indeed not from God; then why did Paul refer to it as "good news" and not heresy?

    To fully appreciated the curse of Paul, one needs only compare what had been preached by others in the past with what Paul is preaching as the last revelation of good news from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Even Peter admitted Paul's revealed "good news" message was hard to understand, new, and different from what Peter had been preaching.
    If Peter understood these things, OldRegular why can you not?

    Aaron I don't wish to put words in your mouth, and if I am, please feel free to spit 'em out with correction.
    But this is what the above sounds like:

    One cannot be really sure if one has fully given one's heart to the Lord or if one only has a head knowledge of the Lord.
    Therefore if one accepts the tenants of Calvinism, one can be assured of salvation because one could not accept the tenants of Calvinism unless one was truly saved.
    (Sounds a bit circular to me.)

    Is man saved because he is in a certain group and therefore saved by default because he would not accept the teaching of said group unless he was saved; or is man saved by what he believes?

    When asked what should I do to be saved, did Paul say:
    "Don't worry, if your foreordained to salvation it will happen; or did Paul say believe on the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Sure some might reply that the asking of the initial question shows the foreordination or election; to which we would ask when Paul entered a place to spread the Gospel did he ask for a show of hands?

    Did Paul say all those who want to be saved raise your hand and come over here and the rest of you can go home? No....
    Paul preached the gospel message to everyone, from which we must assume Paul felt everyone entitled to hear it.

    IMO when one looks to a group, an "ism" which is man made for the knowledge of salvation then one is taking his eyes off the true gospel message of belief.
    Although many man made organizations teach it, IMO we are not saved because we accept the teachings of said organization, but by whom we believe in.

    Calvinism, just as any other man made theology can become a works based salvation because one can feel security by doing the works of the theology.

    I have not been here long; but in my short visit, I have seen far more said of the works needed to show membership in a given theology than I have seen in the actual spreading of the basic Gospel of Grace as revealed through Paul by our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  18. Aaron

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    That's not what I said at all.

    There are those who accept the tenets of Calvinism who still have doubts. There is only one way for a Calvinist to allay his fears, and that is prayer.

    The Holy Spirit is the source of assurance, for everyone who has true assurance.

    There are those who accept free will who still have doubts. They, too, must pray, but, as I see it, their own doctrine must get in the way. They pray, but not in faith that God is sovereign. Their doctrine tells them that they must do something just right to be born again:

    Did I truly repent?
    Did I understand baptism?
    Did I really fully "give" myself to God?
    Did I . . .
    Did I . . .
    Did I . . .?

    It's beyond me that anyone who truly knows his own heart could have any hope that he has truly repented, if indeed it's up to him.

    The Calvinist's question is, Did God?

    As far as doubts are concerned, I'd much rather be in the Calvinist's position.
     
    #18 Aaron, Feb 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2010
  19. Jon-Marc

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    The only people who have something to worry about are those who are not trusting in the Lord.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Aaron

    I believe that faith and doubt are opposite sides of the same coin. Like you i believe that prayer is the best way for faith to allay doubt. Having said that my faith is based on the work of GOD not my so-called free will.
     

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