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Do Not Be Afraid to Welcome Christ

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, Oct 19, 2003.

  1. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Marriage would be the other exception (along with Baptism).

    Mark
     
  2. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

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    That depends upon the sacrament.

    In the case of Baptism, I would agree.

    In the case of the Eucharist, that definitely would not be true.

    With the remaining five sacrament, my thought (without absolute certainty) is that it would also not be true.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Don't forget the sacrament of Holy Orders so that the Eucharist can be available. Also, there is scripture support for this sacrament through the "laying on of hands" which strongly implies succession.

    Also, for the aposstles to "make disciples of all nations" in Matthew 28:19, finds the apostles all dead long before this has happened, and it has not yet happened to this day.

    But their successors certainly carry on, don't they? [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    - Anima Christi -

    Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
    Body of Christ, save me.
    Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
    Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
    Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
    O good Jesus, hear me;
    Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
    me not to be separated from Thee.
    From the Wicked Foe defend me.
    And bid me to come to Thee,
    That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
    For ever and ever. Amen.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It seems to me that Bill, Carson, and perhaps other Catholics here would blindly defend those Catholic leaders (even the pope himself) if they were (and some are) involved in the worst kind of sexual immorality possible to mankind. The sexual molestation of children, rape, homosexuality; it can all be documented. It can also be documented that the Catholic Church does little or nothing about it.

    There is no church discipline, and history throughout the centuries just keeps on repeating itself. The outrage of Baptists and other Protestant groups is that if a Baptist preacher would be found with such a charge he would be immediately removed from the office of a pastor, and never be allowed to pastor again. If it was a criminal act he would face the charges in a court of law. There is no way that the church could ever cover up his sin, as the Catholic Church covers and hides the horrendous crimes and iniquitous sins of the priesthood. What a travesty this is!

    And then to blithely say that we must pray for those that don't fall in sin??? As if that is an excuse to excuse those that do fall in sin--give me a break and don't insult our intelligence. Sin is sin; and in God's court of law sin must be paid for. The good never outweighs the bad. That seems to be your thinking. It is not God's thinking.

    Your thinking is that if 49% of the Catholic priests are sexual perverts, as long as 51% are not then it is all right. Just make sure that we pray that the 51% remain good enough so that they continue to outweigh the evil leaders in the church. What a shame. Purge out the leaven! ALL OF IT!
    DHK
     
  4. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Can I assume that since there was no reply to my last post that it is accepted that I am right? :D ;) :D

    OK, my Catholic brothers I will give you a little more time before I declare victory! ;) [​IMG]

    In Christ, who saved the likes of even me,
    Brian
     
  5. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    http://www.reformation.com/
     
  6. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Come on, DHK. How can you possibly say this after all of the examples of noncatholic pastors retained by their churches after committing the very same sins that you rail against?

    How can you say that when the norm is that such pastors simply move somewhere else and start a new church?

    How can you say that when you have those baptist boot camps for teens where children have been beaten and starved even to death?

    Take the beam out of your eye.
     
  7. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

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    Speaking for me, I defend none of them! If they are guilty of such offenses, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and their priestly faculties suspended! They are a scourge to the Church and to Christ and His gospel! But let's be careful here and not condemn the innocent who are falsely accused, and this has been occuring...

    Now, as to forgiveness of their sins, they can go to confession to a priest like all of us sinning Catholics can do, but it does not reduce their punishment nor bring back their priestly faculties.

    Are you serious? The Church has always had to deal with such priests, including automatic excommunication for certain offenses that are not punishable by law! Simonry is one of them, as well as soliciting sex in the confessional another. (At least the last time I checked canon law, and that has been quite a while.)

    You are a Christian and you refuse to pray for sinners, DHK? Praying for them does not excuse them, DHK!

    And I am sorry if that "insults your intelligence," DHK...

    Did you day 49%? Good heavens, DHK, the worse statistics I have heard was 2% which is about the national average. I have also heard that the percentage of Catholic priests is far less then among Protestant clergy, married or not (knowing that such statistics are rather lacking.)

    And all this time, what you want the Catholic Church to do is bring back the "Inquisitional stake" and burn 'em all! Are you serious, DHK?

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+

    Not riches, but God.
    Not honors, but God.
    Not distinction, but God.
    Not dignities, but God.
    Not advancement, but God.
    God always and in everything.


    - St. Vincent Pallotti -
     
  8. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

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    YOu mean this statement:

    quote...

    Bill, I say this with love and mean no attack, please understand that. It seemed that your post after Ray's first post had a strange "defending" quality. It was almost like you would defend the Pope to the end kind of thing. I think even the Pope would want you to defend Christ, not him.

    That was just a social worker observation there and something I wanted you to be aware of.


    Unquote...

    I am not sure exacly what you are concerned about in my post, when out of the clear blue sky, Ray just has to bring up the priestly scandel, like at every opportunity, he just has to hold your feet over the fire and hear us squeel and squirm!

    All Carson did was bring up the issue of a very holy pope, John Paul II, and Ray just could not resist his dig, That got me angry, sir!

    So, please put on your Social Services hat on and go back, read Carson's comment then Ray's, and see if you get just a scintilla of a hint why I was offended!

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Forgive us Lord,
    when in longing to defend what is right,
    when in trying to support the truth
    we do what is hurtful and mean,
    forgetting to take out
    whatever logs are in our own eyes
    to take the speck out of the eye of our fellows,
    forgetting to work all things in love.

    Lord, forgive us
    when hurt by our fellow man,
    we complain, and strike back.

    Heal us Lord,
    and give us strength to offer you
    our hurts and sadnesses,
    to offer you the pain of being corrected,
    rather rightly or not.

    If it is our job to correct,
    help us learn to do it in ways that heal,
    not hurt,

    And whatever we do in your name,
    may we always do it for your glory,
    without hate, anger,
    or the taint of self-righteousness.

    May we learn to be quiet
    in our longing and respect for you,
    rather than speak words
    that would drive any away from you,
    or harm those who love you.

    And when we speak,
    may it always be guided by the Holy Spirit.

    Amen.
     
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Can you show me in the Bible where this occurred?
    How can that be when the Scriptures have been translated to different languages?
    How do you know that your local church doesn't have problems?

    Because it matches your personal interpretation of Scripture? How do you know that is right?

    BTW, maybe you don't get the responses that Bob Ryan, Ray Berrian, DHK, and the like do, because you aren't as bombastic as they are.

    But don't you go changing. [​IMG]
     
  10. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    WPutnam,

    I believe you are a godly man and hate sin. We would think better of the bishops if they were to take a stronger hand in the matter of the sins of their priests.

    You seem quite strong in your statements. Good. Who knows if you lived in Martin Luther's time you might have been the first reformer of the Roman Catholic Church. But if they did not like you strident stand, they would have forced you into becoming the leader of the Protestant Reformation.

    Take this with a grain of salt. Just some crazy thoughts.

    As I said, we give you credit.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    http://www.reformation.com/ </font>[/QUOTE]To be more specific, in the IFB circles that I am more associated with a pastor caught in an immoral act would automatically disqualify himself from the ministry. I have never seen it otherwise.

    From the website that you provided:
    Do you know what the jails are like in Indonesia? Do the Catholic priests in America suffer like this for their similar crimes?
    DHK
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I realize that you (and Brother Ed) have voiced your opinion about these crimes, and do not condone them at all. They should indeed be punished as you say. We agree. But apparently the Catholic church (particularly those in the places of highest leadership--from the pope down) do not agree. If they did they would do something about it.

    Only God forgives sins. No priest has that authority. Most of the crimes that I am referring to involve jail terms, not just confession to a priest and then being shuffled to another parish.

    I agree that the church has always had a problem, and has always had to deal with such problems. However it is reluctant to deal with most of its problems, especially nowadays as can be easily seen in the light of the scandals that are presently going on.

    I don't refuse to pray for anyone. The point that was made was the comment made by one of you was that we should pray for the Catholics that are in good standing, implying that as long as we have some good priests among the wicked then every thing is hunky-dory.
    Let the wicked alone; let them wallow in their wickedness--just as long as you pray for the good priests. That is what the comment implied. And yes that insults one's intelligence.

    I am not sure what the exact percentages are: 2% to 10%? Whatever. That wasn't the point. The point was made in the above paragraph--the idea that the good outweighs the bad. As long as there are more good priests than bad priests then everything is ok. It is hypothetical, but yet that it precisely how most people think when it comes to their thinking in their eternal welfare. They think that in that great day when they stand before God, if their good works out weigh their bad works, God will allow them into Heaven. Sad to say, it doesn't work that way.

    No, just justice according the laws of the country. No human being, (priest, nun, pope, or other wise) ought to be immune from the laws of America (or Canada) just because they are a religious leader.
    DHK
     
  14. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

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    The problem is, the bishops are most likely trying to get to the bottom of accusations directed against their priests before they go to the police, like I think any good cooporation executive would do about an employee. The bishop can only suspend the priest of his faculties, and, if it envolves the sacrament of penance, then the bishop is bound to silence, did you know that? But that is another issue...

    In any case, if the accuser goes to the authorities, then it is out of the bishops hands anyway. Bishops try to reconsile sinners, even their own priests, and if it does not envolve the sacrament of penance, then if the offense is serious, then and only then would a bishop go to the authorities.

    Thank you for you assessment of me being "Godly" and "hate sin," which I do, Ray, and coming from you, I certainly appreciate that, but please know that I am a sinner and fall short of the glory of God!

    Speaking of reformers, many Catholic scholars have said that had Luther remained with the Church in obedience, he would have very well have become a hero as a great reformer! There were indeed, abuses in the Church! Alas, he did not, which is a shame. And by the way, there is another contemporary of Luther's who did indeed, become a great Church reformer.

    St. Catherine of Sienna

    And a woman no less! [​IMG]

    No, I won't take that with a "grain of salt"! [​IMG]

    Your words now make me wonder if I had indeed, been a bit too harsh with you! [​IMG]

    But in any case, you know I will be rather headstrong when I comes to defending my Church! [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
     
  15. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    That depends upon the sacrament.

    In the case of Baptism, I would agree.

    In the case of the Eucharist, that definitely would not be true.

    With the remaining five sacrament, my thought (without absolute certainty) is that it would also not be true.
    </font>[/QUOTE]What about absolution? Augustine wrote that, in case of necessity, even a layman absolves.

    I may be mistaken but I thought that priests of churches that join the Roman fellowship are not re-ordained.

    The ECUSA and the ELCA have full fellowship. Is the ECUSA (Anglican) violating the historic episcopacy by allowing current ELCA pastors (Lutheran) to be grandfathered?
     
  16. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi Ron, Is Bombastic a real word? :D

    Hope all is well with you. So I need to get a little nasty to get answers? Hmmmmmm [​IMG] No, not gonna start changing now. Anyway, you asked for scripture to show that what I was saying about the Bible carrying on. These verses came to mind. Read carefully and you will see what I am getting at. It is based on logic in regards to a foundation. You build on top of a solid foundation, which the apostles and special prophets were. They laid out God's word and gave it to the world in written form. We now build the "body of Christ" daily from the words of the Bible. We reference it and get our messages from it. You get the point. I believe Eph. is clear here.

    Ron, I don't believe that I have to agree with DHK, Ray or anyone else on every bible point for us to be brothers in Christ and for us all to have the truth in regards to Jesus Christ. Paul and Peter disagreed. I believe there was issues with Paul and Silas as well, or was it Barnabus. These guys probably disagreed on a few other things that we don't see in scripture. You see they were men and could be fooled, corupted, etc...

    In Christ who saves forever,
    Brian
     
  17. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    oops, forgot to post verses - sorry

    KJV
    Eph 2:
    [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Eph.3
    [1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    [2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
    [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    -Brian
     
  18. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    "They laid out God's word and gave it to the world in written form. "


    Hmmmm. Don't remember reading the books of andrew? There is a Gospel of Thomas but it seems that has been rejected. Perhaps you are considering re-evaluating it based on your theory? Were Luke and Mark Apostles? Not that I recall. Seems less than half of the Apostles wrote any scripture so if that was their job then there must be some missing books to the Bible. Actually, oddly enough you can't even prove from scripture that Matthew wrote any verses of scripture.

    Blessings
     
  19. Catholic Dad

    Catholic Dad Guest

    DHK wrote:
    DHK, I don't understand your response here. Why would a pastor disqualify himself because he got caught if he did not disqualify himself when he committed the act? If you mean that he is disqualified by those who caught him (but that it is his act that actually disqualifieds him) then Thessalonian's point still stands--what prevents that pastor from going to or starting another church? His disqualification is only effective in that local, autonomous church.

    In Christ,
    Learner
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    What a worthless statement. No offense, but a Catholic priest in the US will suffer the same as a Baptist minister in the US. Please don't throw some holier-than-thou comment in; it wasn't needed.
     
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