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Do Not Be Afraid to Welcome Christ

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, Oct 19, 2003.

  1. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Even mortal sins can be forgiven outside of the sacrament through an act of perfect contrition. However, it is proper to go ahead and go to confession even after this to restore that bond with the universal Church and good for the person to hear the words of forgiveness spoken into the ears.

    I'm not totally sure; I think you'll need to clarify. I know that a Lutheran pastor would have to be ordained, because he never received the Sacrament of Holy Orders. I'm not sure how it would work with Anglicans and the like; however, I would assume that their orders are not valid.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Does proof of authorship have to come from inside the Scripture itself (since it is not dealing with doctrine itself).

    MacDonald's Bible Commentary
    DHK
     
  3. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    DHK,

    [​IMG]
    Yes, Matt wrote Matthew. Don't see that silver bullet verse in your post that proves it though.

    Sorry you had to waste your time typing that in unless perhaps you have it on CD Rom. I am aware of the evidence. Even the internal evidence. However it does not meet the criteria of "explicit evidence" that you guys try to hold us to. The strongest evidence of course is the writings of the Early Church Fathers which is of no evidence to you except when it "supports" your claims.

    Blessings
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    DHK, I don't understand your response here. Why would a pastor disqualify himself because he got caught if he did not disqualify himself when he committed the act? If you mean that he is disqualified by those who caught him (but that it is his act that actually disqualifieds him) then Thessalonian's point still stands--what prevents that pastor from going to or starting another church? His disqualification is only effective in that local, autonomous church.

    In Christ,
    Learner
    </font>[/QUOTE]1Timothy 3:1-7 The Qualifications of a Pastor
    3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
    4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
    5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
    6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
    7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    A pastor would disqualify himself for the above reasons, particularly that he would no longer be what the Bible calls "blameless." He would no longer be a citizen (much less an ambassador of Christ) in a standing of good repute in the community. He must be blameless. The Bible says "Be sure your sin will find you out." It will follow you. The church will find it out sooner or later. When it does, the church themselves will excommunicate their own pastor. Besides, it is the duty of any church to carefully examine the pastor that they call. No church would call a pastor who has been a rapist. That just would be ludicrous.

    Every church is very careful about whom they call, and not just anybody can start a church. A man carries a reputation with him. A man with a bad reputation carries that baggage with him. It would be almost impossible for him to start a church. He has disqualified himself by virtue of the Scriptural qualifications of a pastor.
    DHK
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What a worthless statement. No offense, but a Catholic priest in the US will suffer the same as a Baptist minister in the US. Please don't throw some holier-than-thou comment in; it wasn't needed. </font>[/QUOTE]You know as well as I do that they don't. Why do you think that there is so much media attention given to this; so much uproar around the bishop involved in the Boston area? Open your eyes. They are caught in some of the most dreadful acts, and don't even get punished. Their crimes in a Muslim society would be punishable by death, and they would also be so punished under the laws of Moses. In our country they would receive at least a jail sentence if not for the ungodly protection of the Catholic Church.
    DHK
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I never claimed that the Bible was our only authority. We have many authorities, especially when it comes to Math, Biology, astromony, etc. Authorship need not to be proved by the internal evidence of the Bible. It is not a doctrinal issue. Sola Scriptura is that the Bible is our final authority in all matters pertaining to faith and doctrine. There is a difference.
    DHK
     
  7. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    That the Apostles actually wrote the New Testament is not a doctrinal issue?
     
  8. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    What a worthless statement. No offense, but a Catholic priest in the US will suffer the same as a Baptist minister in the US. Please don't throw some holier-than-thou comment in; it wasn't needed. </font>[/QUOTE]You know as well as I do that they don't. Why do you think that there is so much media attention given to this; so much uproar around the bishop involved in the Boston area? Open your eyes. They are caught in some of the most dreadful acts, and don't even get punished. Their crimes in a Muslim society would be punishable by death, and they would also be so punished under the laws of Moses. In our country they would receive at least a jail sentence if not for the ungodly protection of the Catholic Church.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Last I checked, the major priest in this scandal (can't think of his name, started with a D I think) got murdered while in prison, and violenty, I might add.

    And ever think that maybe not all those who have been accused are guilty? Sometimes I think you think that an accusation is a guilty verdict.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That the Apostles actually wrote the New Testament is not a doctrinal issue? </font>[/QUOTE]No, it isn't. The fact that the Book of Matthew is the inspired Word of God is important, and is a doctrinal issue. To this day scholars are divided over the authorship of the Book of Hebrews. But there are none that are in the conservative camp that question its authenticity as being part of the canon of Scripture. It is indeed the Word of God whether or not we know its author. The knowledge of the authorship of the book is not going to change any of the doctrines contained in the book.
    DHK
     
  10. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Originally posted by GraceSaves:
    Even mortal sins can be forgiven outside of the sacrament through an act of perfect contrition. However, it is proper to go ahead and go to confession even after this to restore that bond with the universal Church and good for the person to hear the words of forgiveness spoken into the ears.

    Can a layman hear confession and give absolution if a person is near death and no priest is available.


    I'm not totally sure; I think you'll need to clarify. I know that a Lutheran pastor would have to be ordained, because he never received the Sacrament of Holy Orders. I'm not sure how it would work with Anglicans and the like; however, I would assume that their orders are not valid.

    Shouldn't Lutherans be grandfathered? The Augsburg Confessions make it clear that the German Lutherans wished to continue the Holy Orders but the Catholic bishops would not ordain suitable persons (i.e., Lutherans).

    Surely, the Anglicans and Swedish Lutherans have valid Orders. They have continued the Apostolic Succession tradition.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Just one of many examples: This is one man who should have spent some years in jail, and in other countries would have faced the death penalty. See:
    Bishop Gregory's Remarks

    Catholic Sexual Abuse

    DHK
     
  12. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    I think Grace Saves said, 'Last I checked, the major priest in this scandal (can't think of his name, started with a D I think) got murdered while in prison, and violenty, I might add.'

    Apparently, prison justice is more fair than the the bishops who sit at their gatherings and take no offical sanction against their sexually deviant brothers. And they wonder why they cannot supply their churches with pastors. The Lord God cannot abide this rotten sin perpetrated against innocent children.
     
  13. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi Thess.
    What I was getting at is that the Jesus breathed God's word and it was written down. Written down by Apostles and probably an argument could be made that Matthew and Mark were prophets, but that is not a big deal anyway. God breathed new truth through the Apostles and Prophets and those truths were written down, thus the Bible as we know it is built on the chief cornerstone, Jesus, and the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. God's truths are revealed through those three sources. See how that matches the scripture I provided?

    Lets face it, there would be no "body of Christ" today without the Bible. We need to point to the written word when sharing Christ with others because it authenticates our message. Before the Bible the authentication came from the miraculous gifts that God gave to some of the early believers, primarily the apostles. It all ties together nicely.

    The Catholic Church even with the Trad. and Mag. as truth would not stand without the Bible because there must be a reference back to something written (by 44 people over 1500 years) to make it believable. Without the Bible Jesus would fall into the category of a Joseph Smith or something. Let me know your thoughts.

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    No.


    Wanting to be validly ordained isn't enough.

    To my mind their desire to continue the Holy Orders suggests a belief in the Church. Perhaps they should have yeilded to that stirring of the Spirit and remained in the Church.
     
  15. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Not sure why you say this , Brian.

    There was no clear definition of exactly what was and was not Scripture for a couple of hundred years, until the Church settled the issue.

    How was the Church spread during that time?

    After the Apostles were gone and before the Scriptures were put together into one book, what did missionaries do? Carry a big backpack filled with scrolls? Or do you think that they performed miracles? Or did they teach by word of mouth?
     
  16. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Well Irenaus said, "if we did not have the scriptures we would have the Church". I am sure the quotes of the Apostles, teachings, and stories, they helped carry on when Jesus ascended in to heaven to have been passed on the same way that the stories in Genesis were carried on until Moses wrote them down many centuries later. But the Bible does make things convenient. And you are correct, we as Catholics do hold the scriptures in very high regard. They certainly help the situation. As John said "these things were written so that you might believe". So I in general agree with your post. But I think you guys downplay the effects of teaching in your life with regard to tradition. I stated in another thread that Mormons who believe in proxy baptism of the dead do it because they have had it taught by Mormons who have carried on this tradition. They even support it from the scriptures. A Oneness pentecostal cannot learn the trinity even though he has the Bible because he is not taught it. It is not a part of the tradition that is passed on to him. The student cannot be greater than the teacher the scriptures tell us. If the teacher teaches error, the student will learn it and it is very difficult for them to unlearn it. Baptists will generally hold to what they learned in their baptist upbringing. I am currently working with my Mother in law who was never taught about angels in her Protestant upbringing even though they are clearly a part of scripture. (she's Catholic now).
    The book of James tells us how solemn a thing it is to be a teacher. A teacher is judged more stringently for teaching error.

    James 3:1
    Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.


    Yet it seems a Protestant with a nickel will go spouting off what he has just learned as if it is the Gospel truth. Teaching is not just about reading scripture. It is about understanding scripture. We are told in Jer 3:15 I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING.


    There, you have my random rambling thoughts.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    So for the Catholic, the Bible is just a convenience, nothing more. Perhaps it is more accurate to say (in the light of the importance put on Oral Tradition) that the Bible has become an inconvenience. Many of the doctrines of the Catholic Church are unbiblical and unproveable from the Bible. For you it is not a necessity, only a convenience.
    Whereas Jesus said: "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God." You treat the Word of God, as a convenience, more like a cup of coffee; at least that is what you quoted and appeared to agree with.

    You cannot believe in Jesus Christ without believing in the Bible. It is the Bible that defines who Jesus Christ is? Is Jesus Christ the Christ of the Muslims? of the J.W's? of the Mormons? of the Hindus? of the Catholics? of who??
    The only Christ I know is the Christ that is defined in the Bible, not by the Catholics, not by other cults or groups, but by the Bible. He is not defined by tradition, but by the Bible. The Bible remains our final and most important source in reference to who Christ is, as well as all other doctrines. Without the Bible, the Christian has no faith to believe.
    DHK
     
  18. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    The Word is essential in whatever form it comes to man:

    For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us.
    Large Catechism, Martin Luther
     
  19. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Jesus is Lord and He tells us the Bible is true.
    Jesus is not Lord because the Bible tells us He is Lord.

    No tradition should be put on a par with scripture. However, traditions that are useful and not contrary to scripture should be continued.

    Here we have Paul as a constant champion, who everywhere contends that these observances neither justify nor are necessary in addition to the righteousness of faith. And nevertheless we teach that in these matters the use of liberty is to be so controlled that the inexperienced may not be offended, and, on account of the abuse of liberty, may not become more hostile to the true doctrine of the Gospel, or that without a reasonable cause nothing in customary rites be changed, but that, in order to cherish harmony, such old customs be observed as can be observed without sin or without great inconvenience.
    Apology to the Augsburg Confession
     
  20. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Brian,

    I agree with your previous post except for this line: "Lets face it, there would be no 'body of Christ' today without the Bible."

    That is quite untrue. God's covenant people would continue to prevail had not a word of New Testament Scripture been penned. Christianity is not a religion of the book, but a religion of the Word: living and active among a people, a living community of faith that is certainly nourished - no doubt - by the inspired, inerrant Sacred Scriptures, both Old and New.
     
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