Do Posttribs have trouble populating the millennium?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Jan 3, 2004.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    I just finished a review of a pretrib web article on supposed problems us Posttribs have with populating the millennium. This is actually one of the chief arguments used against us.

    In my article I argue that Biblically there is no warrant for separate judgements. This is how pretribs supposedly eliminate all unrighteous before the millennial reign begins.

    This way, there has to mortal righteous who enter to procreate and their ancestors rise up agains Christ in a rebellion at the end of the millennium.

    The thesis of my answer to this pretribber article, is that only unbelieving mortals enter the millennium. Believers will be raptured and gloriously changed in the first and only resurection of the righteous after the tribulation. Then we and Christ will rule over and subjigate the unbelieving world for a thousand years before it launches one final rebellion against Christ.

    I hope you will at least take a few moments to look at this article before you just lace into my position. It is located at http://www.ifbreformation.org/WebReview_PostTribs_Mill.html

    I look forward to your responses.

    IFBReformer
     
  2. Daniel David

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    Larry, while interesting, it is still unconvincing by far. We have gone back and forth about the Sheep/goat judgment and the GWT judgment before.

    Just one note about it:

    The SG judgment has Christ returning with his angels to enact judgment.

    The GST judgment is at the end of the millenium.

    Christ does not return anywhere at the end of the millenium.

    Sorry, this is nothing more than a reach to answer posttrib problems.
     
  3. Tim

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    Trouble populating the millenium?

    I can think of a couple pharmaceutical companies who'd be glad to help out.
     
  4. IfbReformer

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    Daniel,

    Why don't I find a Sheep Goats judgement in the timeline of Revelation 19 through 21? Did John just forget about it when he made this final great time line of eschatological events from the battle of Armagedon, to the rapture, then the judgement and then the New Heavens and earth?

    You see the way you assemble prophectic events is piece-mail, I look at the timelines like Revelation 19-21 and accept them as they are - complete timelines.

    You believe they are incomplete revelation and need events added in. I say all the events are there. Other earlier New Testament passages just give us more detail on things like the rapture, the tribulation and the judgement.

    The Sheep and Goats judgement is more detail on what will happen at the Great White Throne judgement.

    Check it out. Daniel 9 gives us the timeline from up to Christ's first advent. Then Christ in passages like Matthew 24 gives us the timeline from his death to the rapture at the end of the great tribulation.

    Revelation 19 through 21 picks up where Christ leaves off with the rapture and the battle of Armaggedon and then shows us the complete Revelation of God. I believe the timelines are complete - Pretribs do not.

    If you could only see how simple things really are. If you don't accept Revelation chapters 19-21 as complete timelines, then you can come up with all kinds of systems like Pretribulational Dispensationalism, Postmillennialism and Ammillenialism.

    Historic Premillennialism is the only system of prophecy which accepts Revelation chapters 19-21 as the complete and final timeline of prophectic events from the battle of Armmagedon and the rapture to the final eternal state.

    Thanks for your comments.

    IFBReformer
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Postribbers have to populate the
    Millinnial Kingdom? I always figured
    that God can populate the
    Millinnial Kingdom without consulting
    us.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. IfbReformer

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    Good one Ed.

    IFBReformer
     
  7. Daniel David

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    Larry, you ignored my point by arguing from silence. If that is how you wish to debate, then I will be silent and have at it.
     
  8. IfbReformer

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    Daniel David,

    I did not ignore your point, I answered it. I said the Sheep and Goats judgment is simple another description of the Great White Throne judgment.

    Also you did not acknowledge the fact that I pointed out that you believe the chronology of Revelation 19 through 21 is incomplete and you need to add other events into that timeline, like multiple resurections and judgements.

    I think I know what you want me to answer about the Sheep and Goats judgment - well if you read my article you would see the explanation.

    I will requote it here for you:

    I hope this clears things up.

    IFBReformer
     
  9. Daniel David

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    Matthew 25 begins by saying it takes place WHEN THE SON OF MAN COMES...

    The GWT is AFTER the millenium. Where is Christ coming to after the millenium?
     
  10. IfbReformer

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    When Christ comes to rule in the millennium he will do many things. But it does not necessarily mean he will do it at the begining of the millennium, he can, and will do it at the end of the millennium as Revelation 20 tells us.

    Christ will still be here at the end of the millennium and then the begining of the eternal state - wont't he?

    Let me give you an example of what I am saying.
    Lets say I am going on a business trip and I tell my children "when I come home I will put you to bed and read bed time stories". Now does that mean that as soon as I come home, even if it is only 5:00 in the afternoon, that I will put them to bed and read bedtime stories? Of course not. I am going to do at the end of the night.

    Like I said, if Matthew 25 was the only passage describing the judgment you might have a point. But since we have the clear final timeline of Revelation 19,20 and 21 we know that when Christ returns yes he will judge, but this judgement will take place at the end of his reign, not the begining.

    I hope this helps.

    IFBReformer
     
  11. npetreley

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    I see another problem with the premise you are refuting...

    He forgot about the 144,000 who are sealed for protection during the outpouring of God's wrath (the rapture occurs immediately before God pours out His wrath on the world). They will survive the wrath and go into the millenium. I'm assuming these 144,000 are protected for good reason, which means I assume they are saved, yet they are obviously not raptured.

    Regardless, God can populate the millenium any way He wants. It's kind of a silly way to try to disprove post-trib.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    One comment.
    "First" as in Revelation 20:5 "first resurrection"
    in English is not exclusive. I.E. "first" is
    not the same as "first and only". The same is
    true of the Greek term translated "first".
    Revelation 20:18 gives the penalty for adding to
    the words. Changing "first" to "first and only"
    entails penalty, and i sure won't be doing it.

    The First Resurrection is a set of events.
    God is NOT and should not be limited to one and
    only one resurrection.

    Likewise, God is not limited to one and only one judgement.
     
  13. IfbReformer

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    I agree that God is not limited to anything. But his Word here in Revelation here is a clear timeline of events from the battle of Armageddon to the Eternal State.

    No, it does not say "first and only" as you correctly pointed out. But the phrase after the "This is the first resurrection" it then says "... 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

    Also there is an important phrase just before the state that "This is the first resurrection".

    It says "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)".

    Let first take the statment preceding it that "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.". It had just spoken of saints being resurected. Then it makes a statement that no other dead were going to be raised until the end of millennium. Then John after telling us a clear statement about the resurection of these saints and that none of the other dead would be raised until after the millennium makes a clear statement that "This is the first resurrection".

    It is amazing to me how Dispensationalists claim to be the only ones who take the Bible literally and at face value but they ignore such a clear statement. You write off "This is the first resurrection" as this the "first type of resurrection". So who is changing God's Word here? I won't accuse you if you don't accuse me.

    John makes it clear, that this is the first resurection of the saints - not the second as your system requires it to be.

    He also makes it clear that there will be no other resurection until the end of the millennium. Now is this second resurrection one of the rightesous and unrighteous, inessense a second resurection of the righteous?

    Well I think John's statement of those who have a part in the first resurrection that the "second death has no power over them" gives some insight here. Who are the only ones that the second death will have no power over? Believers.

    Then he makes another statement about those who are raised in this first resurection that "they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." Again this is exclusively for those who are a part of this first resurection and this includes all believers.

    All those who wait for the second resurection are those who will not "be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." and conversely the second death does have power over them.

    God is not limited to one resurection, but his Word is. To say anything differently you must come out and admit as many Dispensationalists and other prophectic schools do that Revelation 19 through 21 is not a complete timeline. You must say that for some strange reason God gave John this final timeline but had him leave out extra judgements and extra resurections.

    I am not willing to say that, are you?

    You see if we don't accept timeline passages like Revelation 19-21 then we can create whatever timeline we want. We can just throw this event in here, or that event in there.

    Revelation is how the story ends, you can either accept it or reject it.

    IFBReformer
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Sorry brother IBFreformer, but your
    argument "first" = "first and only"
    is very weak. And you deny it with your
    other arguments. Fortunately for you,
    postrib can be "proved" without denying
    that the "first resurrection" can be
    in several time seperated sequences.
    For nowhere in Revelation 20 does it
    say "first in time resurrection".

    You are correct about the timing sequence
    information of Revelation 20.
    All the various time seperate
    resurrections of the "first resurrection"
    are complete by the mention in
    Revelation 20:5 and all the resurrections
    of the just (i.e. the first resurrection set)
    are completed before any of the
    resurrecitons of the unjust (implied "second
    resurrection")

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.


    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 29 Sept 2003;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised before
    the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

    [​IMG]
     
  16. LadyEagle

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    Ed, I loved it! Thanks! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. IfbReformer

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    Ed,

    Lets start with your Resurection #1 - that of Christ. This is not the first resurection of the saints, this is the first and only resurection of God the Messiah.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23(NIV)
    "20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

    Ed you see there is more than one resurection in the Bible - on that much we agree. There were resurections in the Old Testament. There were resurections in the New when Christ was raised.
    But Christ's resurection was different than all that were before him and even than those who were raised at the time he was raised. 1 Corinthians 15 makes this clear.

    His resurection was the first of a kind - in that he was not only raised but given a glorified body. He was glorifaction as we will be after the Tribulation. Paul makes it clear that each will be raised "in his own turn" - Christ was first to be raised to glorifaction, "then, when he comes, those who belong to him.".

    So it is clear even from this passage that there is only one resurection of the Saints. To further support this we quote Hebrews 11:39-40 - "39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

    All believers will be of all time that will ever be saved will be raised "together". There is no Scriptural warrant for multiple resurections to glorifacation of believers.

    Let me go back and look at your references for timing of these resurections:

    You say for "3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints" that is will happen "WHEN: Some date after 29 Sept 2003;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of the Tribulation"
    . Your state your references for this separate resurection and its timing as 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

    Lets now examine these two passages to see if they provide evidence of a separate resurection before the Great Tribulation:

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52
    "51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

    Now Paul here is explaining one of the mysteries God has revealed to him. In the Old Testament the concept of the rapture and the receiving of glorified bodies was unknown. They knew from Daniel that they would be resurrected by they did not know how.

    Paul is explaining the how here and he says this change will take place in "in the twinkling of an eye". However he also says this change "in the twinkling of an eye" will take place "at the last trumpet".

    Unfortunately John Darby, the father of Dispensationalism falsely taught and it has been taught since that "in the twinkling of an eye" was how the whole rapture would take place. Thus people called his idea "the secret rapture". He was wrong though in that "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to how the change will take place in us, not to the rapture as a whole. In fact we have the trumpet of God sounding, I somehow don't think that will be so quite that people can't here it.

    Then we have passages like 2 Peter 3:

    2 Peter 3:10
    "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare."

    Apparently at the day of the Lord we are going to have trumpets sounding and the heavens will "disappear with a roar". That does not sound too "secret" to me.

    Then we are told that while this day will overtake the world as thief, it will not be like a thief to us:

    1 Thessalonians 5:3-5(NIV)
    "3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
    4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."

    So your first reference 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 say nothing about this being a separate resurection from the one spoken of in Revelation 20 at the end of the Tribulation. The only relation to timing it gives us is at his coming and at the last trumpet. I think there is a passage that talks about Christ's coming, the tribulation and the trumpet of God:

    Matthew 24:29-31(NIV)
    "29"Immediately after the distress[Tribulation] of those days
    " 'the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

    Now lets look at your second reference you sited 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17(NIV)
    "16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

    Ed, I don't know if you know this but I was raised in Dispensationalist Churches. I believed exactly as you do until I did a study on my own to prove Dispensationalism for myself. Specifically, I wanted to prove the two part second coming of Christ. Well I was confronted with the same passages I am presenting you with and God changed my heart on these issues. I hope you will take a closer look at them as well.

    Here in this passage you stated we have familar language to that of Matthew 24 in speaking of how this coming and the rapture will take place "with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God - still does not sound secret and quite to me.

    In neither of these passages does it state this is a separate resurection that takes place before the Tribulation. We can rest assured that the chronology of Revelation 20 is the basis for how we understand the end times from the rapture to the eternal state.

    I want to address one last comment by you:

    "NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation."


    While God can do whatever he wants, it is a dangerous precedent to say we can teach things he has not revealed. If he does not teach multiple resurections, but only shows us one resurection of the just and one resurection of the unjust in his final timeline of Revelation 20 then we must accept and teach that. If he chooses to have other resurections or do something different than he has revealed that is his perogitive, but we certainly cannot teach what he has not revealed.

    By the way, the two witnesses be resurected is not a resurection to glorifacation as ours will be.

    I hope you will really take a closer look at the passages you have sited and the passages I have sited. Do you really have any passage in the Scriptures that specifically states a separate resurrection of believers will take place before the Great Tribulation? The answer is no.

    IFBReformer
     
  18. geno

    geno
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    Dear Brothers, I have been reading your commentary on where mortal humans will come from to fill the Kingdom and I was wondering if Zechariah 14:16-19 might not answer that question. It appears there will be unbelievers after the return of Christ who shall enter the Kingdom alive and be able to resist the will of the Lord and it appears that the Lord will even punish them. Couldn't these folks be the ones who will have children during the Kingdom and be decieved when Satan is loosed? Thanks for letting me interrupt your discussion.
    Geno
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    IfbReformer: "Ed, I don't know if you know this
    but I was raised in Dispensationalist Churches."

    I don't think they taught you very well. If they did
    you would know that the dual rapture therory has NOTHING
    to do with Dispensationism. Dispensationalists can
    be pretrib or postrib. Both pretrib and postrib only
    rapture theories can be proved with Dispensation Doctrine.

    IfbReformer: "I hope you will take a closer look at them as well."

    Sorry, i've been looking at them for 52 years as a
    Christian. I find it hard to believe that this scriputre
    will be changed before i die (or before i
    get raptured before the Tribulation period).

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 (nKJV):
    Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the
    traditions which you were taught, whether
    by word or our epistle.


    [​IMG]
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    It seems strange to me, but people want
    to keep asking quetions like: "Who will
    populate the Millinnial Kingdom" that are
    not directly answered in the Bible.
    There is no verse starting out "The citizens
    of the Millinnial Kingdom will be ... ".

    Do we blame God for not having that information?
    Or is it just a human thing, that we ask
    unanswerable questions? Or is it really
    important for us to know, if God didn't
    answer it directly.

    The other question is literality.
    I beleive scriptures should be approached
    litteralily, whenever possible.
    Some statements are meant figurative and
    usually the figure is even explained.

    Look in your dictionary.
    Tell me which one meaning
    (there are probably as many as a dozen)
    that is mean by "day" in 2 Peter 3:10.
    Please note that the 1,000 year = 1 day
    type day mentioned in 2 Peter 3:8
    is NOT mentioned in your dictionary.
    Note the 48-hour day is also not
    mentioned in your dictionary.

    [​IMG]
     

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