Do Posttribs have trouble populating the millennium?

Daniel,

I think you come very close, but not all the way in this posting to acknowleding the real differences between us. But I think you word things a little different than I would.

But lets address what you said in this first statement. I did not "blow over" your explanation of why you think Matthew 25 proves there will be a separate judgement before the tribulation.

I explained to you, that in light of Revelation 19-21's timeline I must interpret this as happening at the end of the millennium in the only judgement mentioned. And you are absolutely right and thanks for acknowledging that I "believe though that Revelation 19-21 is EXHAUSTIVE". When I say "exhaustive" I mean that all the EVENTS from "the first resurection"(rapture) of believers to the eternal state are given to us here. All the DETAILS of each of these events may not be given, but the timing is.

For instance, I know the timing of "the first resurection" is at the end of the tribulation from this passage, but there is not much detail on how this resurection takes place. Passages like 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 give us more detail of this event, but not the timing.

When I read a passage like Matthew 25, and compare it with Revelation 20, I see only one judgement. In light of Revelation 20, I see Matthew 25 as more DETAIL as to what will happen in the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation. You choose to believe it is separate judgement and you clearly do not believe that Revelation 20-21 is EXHAUSTIVE as to the events that will take place at the end.

And there it is - this is where we completely disagree as I just said. I believe if an event from the battle of Armagedon to the eternal state is not mentioned in the timeline of Revelation 19-20 then it does not exist.

I believe as you put it that it is an "exhaustive" time. It is God giving us the answers to what happens in the end. He has already given us details on each of the events described in Revelation 19-21, but Rev 19-21 puts the timeline altogether and tell us how the story ends.

Like I said, up to the book of Revelation God did not give us all the events in one place. In the Old Testment we see bits and pieces, and in the Gospels and the Epistles, more details are given. But finally in the book of Revelation, the last book of the Bible, the endcap, we are given how the story ends, all the pieces are put together for us, we have only to accept it.

First off, not "everyone" places the rapture where you do, but I am sure you knew that. Secondly it is not because of
"theological reasons", it is because of interpretional rules.

Lets be frank and honest here. You and I both believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. You and I both would claim to be "literalists" when it comes to the Scriptures.

This means whereever possible we try and take the natural sense of a passage. But we both must acknowledge that we use one passage to interpret another many times.

For instance in this discussion, you take Matthew 25:31's phrase "31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory" to mean a separate judgment must come before the millennium, and even though you don't see it discussed in Revelation 20, you believe it is there before the millennium.

I on the other hand, use the timeline of Revelation 19-21 as my starting point and since I don't see a separate judgment before the millennium and only one final judgement mentioned there - I interpret that as simply more detail of that judgment.

One other example, since you believe the church is made up only of believers from the time of Christ to the begining of the tribulation and the have no part in the tribulation because you believe this is only for Israel, then you must interpret Revelation 20:5's statement "This is the first resurrection" as speaking of "the first resurrection program" or "the first type of resurection" because you believe it cannot be the first resurection.

I want to zoom in on this other part of your statement "No text explicitly says when it is. So everyone will see the rapture their way because of what they believe.".

Well I believe there are texts that do say "when it is". Lets see what things happen at the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17(NIV)
"16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up[raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

So here we have the rapture given to us. The way it is phrased here as a 'catching up' is unique to this passage. But even you would agree that this is not the only passage speaking of the rapture.

But lets first examine this passage. It speaks of the Lord descending from heaven - "with a loud command". It speaks of this happening with a "with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God". Then it says "will be caught up[raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air".

In this passage we have nothing about the change into glorified bodies - we only see that we will be resurrected meet Christ in the air. But does this proclude us from meeting him in the air and then immediately returning with our triumphal King to his millennial kingdom? Of course not.

But lets just deal with the main elements we have seen so far, The rapture will be with a loud command, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God sounding - then we are resurected and meet him in the air - this is what we know from this passage.

Let now examine the next passage that you would agree speaks of the rapture:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52(NIV)
"51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

So here we see one the mysteries God has given Paul to reveal - that is the glorifacation of our bodies. He says "we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye", so our change will take place instantly into imperishable(glorified) bodies. We also see the trumpet here again. So in this passage we get a little more detail on the resurection of the saints. We find out about the change, but we have a common connector of the trumpet sounding here as well.

So far what do we have from these two passages - we have a the Lord descending from heaven with a load command, and angel shouting and the trumpet sounding. We know that at this time we will be changed in the blink of an eye into our new immortal bodies.

What is the most important point of the rapture -it is the resurection of the saints, these passages have told us about the angels sounding the trumpets and us changing at this resurection.

Now lets look at Matthew 24:

"29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

In this passage we are told that something will happen "Immediately after the distress of those days". It tells us "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.". You and I would both agree that this is the glorious second coming of Christ after the tribulation.

But then comes verse 31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.". Ed handled this passage very different than what I have seen most Dispensationalists. Most say verse 31's gathering of the elect is a "regathering of the elect" and not the rapture. Ed took it and ripped it out of its place and put before verse 29, this is something I will not accept and I am suprised if you do.

But what elements do we see about this gathering? It takes place with a loud trumpet call - something we have see in previous rapture passages and the angels are present as well as we have seen in other rapture passages. Is this enough to say they are speaking of the same of event? If I did not have Revelation chapters 19-21 I would say no. But with those chapters this makes perfect sense to be speaking of "the first resurection". Also the fact that Christ does not mention two different resurections here does cause us to take a second look.

But like a I say, if you use Revelation 19-21 as your starting point, then all these pieces fall nicely into place.

So I do believe based on Revelation 20 that we do have an "explicitly" given time for the rapture - resurection of the saints.

Let me address this statement of yours for a second:
"So everyone will see the rapture their way because of what they believe."

This is the key reason why it will take many years for this shift(about prophecy) to take place away from pretribulationism. It is happening now amongest fundamentalists, but slowly. It just sounds nicer than believers having to deal with the Anti-Christ and be persecuted by him. They want to believe, so they will believe it no matter what they are presented with to the contrary.

I believe in a postrib rapture, not because it sounds nicer or because thats what I would like to see, but it is because of what I read in the Bible, specifically in Revelation 19-21, I can't shake it. I believe these chapters are exhaustive, it just what I believe - you do not choose to believe that,therefore you can insert other passages into Revelation 19-21 to form extra events not mentioned, I can't.

IFBReformer

 

Daniel,

Actually it is mentioned here - it "the first resurrection" - after all, what is the main point of the rapture - it is the resurection of the saints.

rapture(or catching up) is only one description of what happens at the resurrection. But we understand that the main point of being caught up is that we are resurrected.

IFBReformer

 

Daniel,

I just wanted to clarify one more thing. As I explained earlier, Revelation 19-21 has all the events from tribulation to the eternal state.

It does not however, provide all the details of these events. So it gives us the timing of the resurection of the saints, but it does not give us all the details such as being caught up in the air and the glorifacation of our bodies. We can get the details from earlier passages, but the timing of all these events is given to us here.

IFBReformer

 

Daniel,

This is the first statement you have said that I can agree with in its fullness. Amen!

But I know what you really mean that this is the "first resurection program" - in that some of those who are a part of Christ are raised before the tribulation and others who are part of Christ are raised after the tribulation - on that we will agree to diagree as I think we have exhaustively expressed our positions.

IFBReformer

 

Ed,

I just wanted to let you know that I have seen your many posts, but you have not answered any of my questions or even attempted to. Daniel David as at least made a good effort in this regard.

All I will say is that I answered you timeline in many previous posts on this thread and no matter how many times you keep repeating the same things, you have not answered the questions I have posed.

So for anyone out there reading this thread, I hope that you will read the list of scriptures Ed gives, see if it really says what he says it says. Then look at the passages I have stated and compare. Judge for yourselves.

IFBReformer

 

Questions have not been comment about.

These are the signs that will procede the the Second Coming of Christ - they were for his followers, Christians. I never seem him once say "these signs are only for the Jewish Christians". The New Testament is written to all believers, Jewish and Gentile believers. There are not sections of it that are just written to Jewish believers.

I think that covers it.

IFBReformer


</font>[/QUOTE]Ed,

Sure I will comment on these Ed.

Revelation chapter 1 is an introduction(not getting into any timelines yet).

Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are letters to actual historical churches, while they may be types of churches throughout the ages. I don't believe they represent ages of the church.

Revelation chapter 4 and chapter 5, John being shown the thrown room of God - still not really getting into a timeline situation.

Revelation chapters 6 through 18 is the most detailed account of the Tribulation in all of the Bible, but the detail is shrowded in imagery that has been interpreted about 50,000 different ways over the years.

In chapter 19 we see a more solid time structure begin to unfold with an anticipation of the Bride going to be united with her husband and the wedding supper of the Lamb to come.

Then we go into the battle of Armagedon and the first resurection, followed by the millennial reign of Christ, followed by the Great White Throne judgment culminating in the eternal state.

Hope that answers your question there.