Do Sinners go to hell due to rejection of Christ/Or Their Sin Natures?

Good

only for believers. Unbelievers will still have to answer. They do not have Christ's righteousness imputed to them. They are not covered under the blood.

Of course. Believers are covered by the blood, unbelievers are not.

It's what they have done. everything. They works would include sin.

But that's true too.

 

Yes. The part that says "through him" Thats Jesus.

 

Iconoclast...

Join the crowd. I've done the same thing. Its easy to get mixed up, particularly when multiple quote boxes are involved.

 

Quantum thanks for the link....i will look at it later on...
i was not familiar with this person...i will give it a read as time permits

 

Skan,

Understood

The bible view has God in complete control of every molecule and atom in the created universe....working His good pleasure.There is nothing outside of his control,or He would not be God.

fatalism has a god who is a spectator,and a victim....reacting to creation and the creatures ,like a cowboy trying to get control of a run-away stagecoach before it goes over the cliff....he kind of wishes for it to happen but he really cannot determine the outcome for sure. Things happen that he has to see first,then figure out what he would like to happen ,even though it happens regardless of what he wills to happen.
This kind of invented philosphical god does not match the God of scripture.

 

Thank you for being gracious here.

 

More food for thought

Iconoclst....

More of the proverbial "food for thought" for you, and any other Calvinists...

And sure enough, I have seen these very unstable stratagies employed on this, and other, Christian discussion forms.

AiC

http://www.eternalsecurity.us/last_refuge_of_calvinism.htm

 

Iconoclast, this is not true if in fact God has designed "things" to run according to natural laws and principles, He of of course having all rights to step in and purposefully direct a flow of events, if He so desires and wills. He, and He alone designed all the parameters for natural law and thus is quite well aware of all possibilities, "random" as may appear from our perspective. Great is a God who can allow for so much "freedom" and still accomplish any and all that he desires.

 

I've never seen or heard fatalism described in this manner. Can you point me to any scholar or resource which teaches this view?

 

Clearly this is where we differ, and I suppose we could go back and forth over the same verses that have been debated ad nauseum, but you've been around long enough to know them so I don't see the point...

We'll just agree to disagree. Blessings!

 

Quantum,
If you are sincere, I will take a look. I want truth not error.I think most in here are searching to come to truth. The truth belongs to God.
I make it a practice to search out, and search for the strongest views that would oppose what I hold. Although each one of us at this point have a view that we hold...it can and should be always improved upon.
Although having read many of these kind of views in times past, I already have an idea of what I might find....I will try to give it a fair reading...
For it to really get my attention it will have to have some substance to it.
As I have sought to read opponents of calvinism...I have sought out some of the most substantial calvinistic theologians also.....seeing what verses they offer,and what responses they have to these issues.
After awhile it all settles down somewhere.
You might have noticed:wavey: I am not shy about taking a stand for truth.
If something I hold is less than truth,and defective, I would like to believe that I would be granted grace by God to cast aside my own fleshly pre-suppositions...and adopt the new found biblical ones.

Where I lack patience is when I see someone just attack a position that it is clear they really do not grasp [recently GLfredrick has expressed frustration over this]....

Or if open error and heresy is proudly posted....I feel that to not call the poster into question would be sinful neglect...like watching a mugger assault an old lady and do nothing !

I enjoy J.C.Ryle.....even though he had a different view of the atonement.
Richard Baxter is very convicting to read on the christian life[a christian directory] if you just read the table of contents you get convicted of sin !...but many in the Reformed camp can find fault with his views of grace.

All of us are defective in many ways:thumbs: that is why God has promised to work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure....if left to our own devices we would muff it up worse than we do.

 

AIC<
good quote.....will respond in detail later..showing the good part of the quote,and where the writer loses control of himself emotionally:applause:

Skan, I will try to do that later on...when my driving endsabout 400 m iles from now,lol It is an important topic and worth the time and thought.

Quantum, will also get back to this later on, just typed a brief answer to your other post

 

God love ya for taking the time.

 

I was sincere, in that I felt you were being gracious in your response, I am grateful. I do realize that both (you and I) are rather adamant and convinced as to our respective, but differing positions.

 

ok sounds good to me

 

If Calvinism is true, then people do not go to hell because of sin or unbelief, they go to hell because God chose to pass them by.

You can try to explain this away, but this is the logical conclusion of Calvinism.

If God has elected a person before the foundation of the world, then that person will be regenerated by God and irresistably believe in Christ and will have their sins forgiven and go to heaven.

If God has passed over a person, this person is dead before they even commit sin and cannot possibly be forgiven for this original sin or any actual sins they commit later and will go to hell.

If we have no control over whether we can believe or not, and if we are born dead in sin, not because of anything we have done, but because God caused us to inherit Adam's sin, then the only one who determines whether we go to heaven or hell is God himself.

 

If Calvinism is true, then people do not go to hell because of sin or unbelief, they go to hell because God chose to pass them by.

You can try to explain this away, but this is the logical conclusion of Calvinism.

If God has elected a person before the foundation of the world, then that person will be regenerated by God and irresistably believe in Christ and will have their sins forgiven and go to heaven.

If God has passed over a person, this person is dead before they even commit sin and cannot possibly be forgiven for this original sin or any actual sins they commit later and will go to hell.

If we have no control over whether we can believe or not, and if we are born dead in sin, not because of anything we have done, but because God caused us to inherit Adam's sin, then the only one who determines whether we go to heaven or hell is God himself.

If salvation is all of God, then so is damnation.

 

Can't you just discuss a topic?

 

I answered the OP question. If a person holds to free will and believes all persons have the ability to believe the gospel, then unbelief is the answer. Sin cannot be the answer because everyone sins, including those who trust Christ and go to heaven.

But in your system only God determines who goes to hell.

 

Then just answer the question. you attempt to make everything into a Calvinist thread instead of just discussing the topic.

Now, you are correct that both believers and unbelievers are sinners. What i stated was that sin is the primary reason people go to hell. The secondary reason is their rejection of Christ. So when they stand at the Great White Throne Judgment and what they have done is judged, they will be condemned because of their sin. A believer will have the blood of Christ covering their sins and will be presented faultless before God. So we will be justified and be able to be with God in heaven. The unbeliever will have to go to hell because of his sins and rejection of the Savior.