Do some doctrines steal from the Glory of God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Jan 16, 2014.

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  1. Skandelon

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    Calvinists teach that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass for His greatest glory...

    John Calvin wrote, "Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined....Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction."

    John Piper echoes such teaching, "So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”
    As evidenced on this forum and in other notable writings, Calvinists also teach that Arminian doctrine steals from the Glory of God, but isn't that a contradiction? Either God ordained Arminian doctrine (just as He does all things) for His greatest glory or the Arminian teachings steal from God's glory. It can't be both, can it?

    How can one claim that God unchangeable ordained X for his greatest glory, while at the same time claiming that X lessens that glory?

    Is this a Calvinistic contradiction?
     
  2. InTheLight

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    Yep, throw it on the pile with the other contradictions.

    God requires all to repent, but then will not enable all to do so.
    A person has free will but only if God enables it.
    God is sovereign and in control of everything, but the result of the Fall--the total inability to seek or come to God--was Adam's doing.
    The "whole world" does not really mean the whole world. "Whosoever" doesn't really mean anyone.

    I'm sure there are others.
     
    #2 InTheLight, Jan 16, 2014
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  3. Revmitchell

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    The false claims by cals that doctrines they oppose steal the glory from God is not a sincere nor honest claim. It is nothing more than an attack and a chance to demean the views they oppose because they have no real arguments.
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Skandelon
    No not at all.

    It can be both .You just conflate two issues. God has ordained that arminian error stands along side truth-

    18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

    19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


    that false teaching "attempts to " take away from God's glory does not mean that it suceeds to do so...rather it is a rebellious and futile attempt by man to exalt the flesh of man and not give God the glory due his Name.

    In heaven there will be no such vain boasting...just thankful saints giving all glory to God alone.:thumbs::thumbs:

    No...just confusion on your part.
     
  5. InTheLight

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    And according to Calvinism this so-called confusion on Skandelon's part was ordained by God. Icon, it must be nice to be one of the elect and completely in the know on all doctrinal issues.
     
  6. kyredneck

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    Absolutely!

    27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
    28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
    29 that no flesh should glory before God.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus.... 1 Cor 1

    Any doctrine that teaches that it's man's choice, man's free will, man's personal decision that puts man in Christ Jesus is stealing glory from God!
     
  7. InTheLight

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    So if as Piper says, "God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son" and Arminian theology steals from that glory, how is that glorifying?




    [I know, I know....it's a mystery!]
     
  8. Skandelon

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    Ok, so when Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of stealing his glory, you really mean that we are ATTEMPTING to steal his glory, but in reality we are actually bringing God MORE glory because He is the one who unchangeably ordained us to be non-Calvinists for his greatest glory? Glad to hear we are glorifying God. So, what are you fighting against God being glorified here on this forum daily?
     
  9. kyredneck

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    ....that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus...

    There's no 'mystery' there, on the contrary it's quite clear.

    The big "I" of synergism is what takes credit that belongs to God.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    All sin (Arminianism = false doctrine = sin) comes short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and thus TEMPORALLY robs glory from God. All sin is by God's will of permission and thus it does occur. However, the sovereign purpose of God ultimately overrules all sin for the glory of God (Psa. 76:10).

    When we speak of Arminianism as a system of thought, it robs God of glory both theoretically and actually just as any other sin does. However, like all sin this dishonoring of God is TEMPORAL and not ETERNAL as God's sovereign purpose takes even the evil hands that crucified Christ to ultimately glorify God.
     
    #10 The Biblicist, Jan 16, 2014
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  11. Iconoclast

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    You would not know because you never really offer any scripture on anything concerning these matters.You are reluctant to post what error you hold to because you cannot respond to the answers you are given....so you stay back and offer your little cryptic comments as if that advances the discussion...it does not.:thumbs:
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    The writers are correct that these things glorify God. The problem is that in arminian and anti-cal thought many attack these truths as if God receiving 'glory' is God getting His jollies.

    It's not.

    It is God's glory being manifest in justice, mercy, grace, judgment, or whatever manner it is that God is declaring His glory and magnifying His attributes. Consider Romans 1 for instance, as His wrath is revealed, meaning He is being 'glorified'. Note Exodus 32-33 for instance as well where both His justice and mercy are glorified before Moses, the world (today) and Israel. Consider also Jeremiah 24 where his mercy and justice are seen in His Sovereign usage on whom He wills to use either His mercy or His justice and wrath. There are many other examples.

    This glorification of God doesn't have to be warm and fuzzy, as God is a God of wrath as well as love, a God of mercy as well as justice, thus He is 'glorified' in the manners used in the quotes in the OP. Therefore there is no 'contradiction' accept in your misunderstanding.

    God's glory is revealed in many facets, and some think these things unfair or unjust as they don't like the true God of Scripture and attempt to dilute His attributes and glory with man's reason. This is evident here and on other forums and stems from anti-cal/arminian camps.

    Now, you need others to shine light on how your system rob's God of His glory? You did that perfectly well when you proclaimed your personal achievement gospel in another thread, misusing Jeremiah 9:24 as proof.
     
    #12 preacher4truth, Jan 16, 2014
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  13. Iconoclast

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    I do not fight against those who ...OPPOSE THEMSELVES.... I just attempt to answer faithfully and scripturally......

    Those who remain in opposition to God's truth ...perish. We do what we can to see all we interact with come to truth correct? We do not know who God will reveal truth to, so we discuss it with that in view...:flower:
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    So you are now God and can read the hearts of men and sovereignly determine whether or not your opponents are "sincere" or "honest" in their cliams!

    No surprise, as Arminianism is nothing less than usurping God as Arminianism demands the human will in the final analysis is sovereign in determining salvation.
     
  15. Skandelon

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    So, if my error is something God unchangeably ordained for the sake of his greatest eternal glory then you can only claim that our doctrine temporally steals God's glory, but ULTIMATELY is purposed for his greater eternal glory. Why are you fighting against that which is purposed for his greater eternal glory?
     
  16. webdog

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    You don't have to be God to read the heart when what comes out of ones mouth is a reflection of ones heart.

    So you claim arminianism is sin...yet God ordained those to be just that, meaning God decreed sin.

    Throw it on the pile of other contradictions.
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    I recall that this judging of motives was called against BB rules when it was ALLEGED that a Calvinist did this. God hates an unjust balance, does He not? Proverbs 11:21; 20:23??

    And you're exactly correct on your indictment of arminians and anti-cals as they do rob God of the glory. While 'claiming' salvation is all of God, they in their teaching claim it is a 'personal achievement' destroying their former claim altogether.
     
    #17 preacher4truth, Jan 16, 2014
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  18. The Biblicist

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    First, I classified Arminianism in the category with all sin which "comes short of the glory of God."

    Second, does the Scripture command us to resist sin or should we yeild to sin?

    Third, in regard to false doctrine does Scripture command us to rebuke and withstand false doctrine?

    You are fighting against a figment of your own imagination that is inconsistent with itself within your own mind.
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    I never thought permission of sin and its overruling by God was ever an issue with either Arminianism or Calvinism? So what is inconsistent about claiming God's sovereign purpose ultimately overules evil? Does that mean we are to glory in sin until it is overruled? Does Arminian teach that? We certainly don't. So what is your problem with Calvinism claiming that all sin will be ultimately overruled? What is insincere or dishonest about that????
     
  20. Skandelon

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    I'm not denying any of these points for this argument. I am presuming Calvinism's claims are true...that Arminian teaching is 'sin' and 'falls short of God's glory' and that it 'steals God's glory.' In turn, I am contrasting that with the Calvinistic teaching regarding God unchangeably ordaining whatsoever comes to pass for his greatest glory.

    Whether that glory is eternal or temporal matters little to the point of this argument or the apparent contradiction of these two Calvinistic claims, because clearly the greatest glory is the eternal glory which results from that which God has unchangeably ordained to come to pass.
     
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