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Do Tax Cuts for the Wealthy Create Jobs?

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by InTheLight, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Thats part of the problem - govt control via taxes

    Rmember - The power to tax is the power to control

    The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.[​IMG] Patrick Henry quotes (American Lawyer, patriot
     
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Here is the nitty-gritty of the argument. How do individual tax rates on personal income affect the business cash flow of businesses? In other words, how do changes in the personal W-2 tax rates transfer over to the business general cash flow. Answer: They don't.


    Leaving the health mandate aside for now, if a business owner got a 4% increase in their taxes on their personal W-2 wages that does not translate into lost operating capital for the business entity.

    Reductions in personal tax rates affect the take home pay of the wealthy person. That is a separate pool of money from the business checking account.

    It is true that owners of S-Corps and LLC's have pass-through income from their company to their personal tax returns but only about 5% of S-Corp and LLC owners show more than $250,000 in income and have employees.

    Thus, this idea that tax cuts for the wealthy is a job creator is mostly false.
     
  3. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Trickle up worked from about 1945 through about 1970. Most every year the working people expected to do just a little better in the next year and thought their children would have a higher standard of living than they did. I have a higher standard of living than my parents did. My kids . . . 2 have a higher standard than I do and three definitely do not. I don't expect the grand kids to have a higher standard of living than I do. How many of you think your grandkids will have a higher standard of living than you do? Some one who knows this site better that I do might write a poll. If I wrote one it would be ignored.

    >Reasonably - everyone should pay the same (low) percentage! via the Automatic Electronic Tax with Nada - None -NO loopholes/exemptions!!!
    How about 1/2 of 1% Federal AET?

    AGREE this would at least deter the IRS IF cash money was eliminated and make it much harder to bribe politicians. Most dope pushers and mobsters deal in cash and have ways to wash the cash.

    This would NOT by itself prevent the rich from getting richer and the poor, poorer. It would accelerate the process of turning the middle class into industrial serfs.
     
  4. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >Thus, this idea that tax cuts for the wealthy is a job creator is mostly false.

    AGREE! and most of the new jobs are in China and India. If the income tax was zero how would this stop the international corporations from exporting jobs? Are there any LARGE employers that are not international corps? I can't think of any.

    Say by some illegal law making ALL the big box stores were eliminated and all retail stores had less than 100 employees. How would this force the international corps to move production back to the USA?????

    Read someplace that in France it was illegal to have "sales" except at Christmas and official times. Is this still true? Are the consumer appliances sold in France made in France or China?
     
  5. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    S Corps may not have more than 100 stock holders. This limits their size.
     
  6. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    That's the point. I'm no laissez-faire capitalist. If we remove government intervention, don't count on finding a decent job in America. Overseas markets are cheaper.
     
  7. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    What is evident is that you don't have a clue about taxes and small business owners, especially the ones who file their taxes as an individual.
    A 4% increase in tax rate on $250,000 takes $10,000 right out of the pocket of the small business owner. Where do you think that comes from? You think it's manna from from heaven?

    It comes right out of the business. I've been there and done that. With a $10,000 increase in taxes staring me in the face along with other Obama tax measures, I'd fire somebody...yesterday. May two , if they make close to minimum wage.

    For sole proprietorships, business and personal funds are inseparable. Different accounts doesn't mean the money belongs to a different person.
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I am a small business owner.

    No it doesn't. That's not how the tax brackets work.

    How many sole proprietorships have employees? AND earn over $250,000? Answer: Not many, and if there are any they ought to reorganize as an S-Corp. In any event, sole proprietorships are not big hiring entities. Well, they don't hire outside of the family.

    The fact is that for most small businesses that have employees personal and business funds are distinctly different.
     
  9. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    #29 carpro, Mar 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2011
  10. Ternera

    Ternera New Member

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    It may be questionable whether tax cut creates jobs, but it definetely saves already existing jobs, salaries, and benefits. Increase the taxes for any "wealthy" person who has employees, and it will result in zero raises, lost benefits and even lay-offs. I personally would prefer to keep my job than to get extended unemployment benefits.
    This is not even the most important thing. I am truly surprised by a number of people who want to count someone's money and set standards of living for other people. Why do you think you can decide who is wealthy and who is not? And why would not you become wealthy, by working hard and finding your own niche at the market?
    Today, the situation is totally abnormal. People who work hard must give a significant part of their income to the government, while people who simply don't feel like doing anything enjoy many benefits and have more disposable money than those who work. Naturally, people lose motivation to work: why bother, if you can just produce 5-6-7 babies from different fathers and be all set?
    I am originally from Soviet Union, where this sick idea of "redistribution of wealth" first started. I have direct ancestors who were defined as "too wealthy" and all their property was confiscated. I remember this whole absurd of socialism, when doctors, engineers, and scientists were making less money than taxi drivers or carpenters. Seriously, after watching the USSR and its fall, anyone still believes that people should be punished for being able to make money?
     
  11. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >For sole proprietorships, business and personal funds are inseparable.

    That's their problem. Forming a corp is no big deal.

    A tax increase only effects money in the highest marginal tax rate a person pays.
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    According to a survey of 1,100 respondents the range of pay for a Sole Proprietorship is between $38,000 and $96,000.

    http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Small_Business_Owner_/_Operator/Salary

    Another says that it ranges from $35,000 to $64,000 with an average of $44,576.

    http://www.cbsalary.com/national-sa...Small+Business+Owner&jn=jn037&edu=&tid=105988


    According to the U.S. Census the median income of Sole Proprietors is $31,246. (Self-employed non-farm workers)

    http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032008/perinc/new09_001.htm

    Also note at that U.S. Census site that the number of SP's is 12,499,000.

    So it would appear the number of Sole Proprietorships making over $250,000 is practically non-existent.


    Wrong.


    Since the mid-1980s, the number of S corporations had risen rapidly, growing from 724,749 in 1985 to 3,154,377 in 2002. Among S corporations with more than $10 million in assets, the growth rate has been even faster. From 1985 to 2002, the number of these larger S corporations grew more than ten-fold, from 2,305 to 26,096.

    “The use of S corporations has exploded,” observed IRS Commissioner at the time, Mark W. Everson. “The IRS needs a better understanding of what this means for tax compliance. This research is critical for achieving our strategic goal of ensuring that corporations and high-income individuals are paying their fair share," Everson added.

    S corporations are now the most common corporate entity. In 2009, the IRS reported that the number of S corporations increased 5.1 percent to 3.9 million for tax year 2006, so that S corporations represent nearly two-thirds of all U.S. corporations.


    http://www.usa-federal-state-company-tax.com/s_corporation.asp

    Months ago at the Department of Labor web site I found that only 5% of S-Corp owners claimed taxable income of over $250,000 a year and the vast majority of them were doctors, dentists, attorneys, and accountants that did not have employees. I've tried to find that again but I couldn't.

    It is very important. Family members make a difference. A Sole Proprietor may hire children under 18 and not have to pay FICA or Medicare taxes on their wages. Minor children may be paid up to the standard deduction for single people without incurring federal tax withholdings. In other words you can pay your child up to $5,700 without having to withhold federal taxes. Furthermore, any wages paid to these children is considered an expense against the business owner's income. Therefore the SP can pay his kids money tax free and that money reduces the SP's taxable income.

    Also, it isn't prudent for SP's to hire non-family members because personal liability issues would fall on the SP, since the business is not incorporated.

    (I could not find how many SP's hire non-family members. Can you?)


    I think it is provable. The wealthy CEO of a C corporation has no connection between his personal wages and the company cash flow. Therefore reducing his/her taxes does not affect the business operating capital.

    In S-Corps the company's earnings are a part of the owner's salary so there is a connection between the take home pay of the owner and the company cash flow. Cut an S-Corps owner's taxes and they will have more income to use in the business. But less than 5% of S-Corps have owners making over $250,000 and most of these people don't have employees to begin with.

    Now take a hypothetical (and rare) S-Corp owner that makes $350,000 a year. When the Bush tax cuts kicked in his top rate went from 39.6% to 35%. So let's assume his taxes got cut by 4.6%, or $16,100. Is that owner going to hire someone with that money? Highly unlikely. Employers hire people because their business is expanding and they need workers. A tax cut does not directly create demand for a business's products or services.

    So i think it's pretty easy to say that tax cuts for the wealthy don't create jobs.

    I can agree with that!
     
  13. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Of course you do. You just haven't been able to do it.

    Most of the "proof" I have seen in research is by people who say the Kennedy tax cut created jobs, but the Reagan and Bush tax cuts didn't.

    No proof of that either. It's ideological, just like yours.

    One thing we all know for sure, a tax increase in this economy will cost jobs.
     
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Why not? The number of wealthy business owners that have pass through income from their businesses to their personal checkbook is negligible. These are the people that would have business operating capital available from a personal wage tax cut.

    Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that these people receiving a tax cut would receive enough money to be able to hire someone, and even if they got enough money that they would actually hire someone.

    Sorry, but I think I've made a compelling factual case. I favor tax cuts. I favor deep cuts in government spending. But I get rankled when the right trots out this unsupportable idea that rich people need tax cuts because they create jobs. It's just not so.

    Yep.
     
  15. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >One thing we all know for sure, a tax increase in this economy will cost jobs.

    If so, it is because the jobs will go off shore.

    I suspect much recent job increase is caused by people getting a second job to pay the bills or get health insurance. Also by people working for part agencies that pay no bennies.
     
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